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Thread: Grading questions.....??

  1. #11

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    Some folks grade ASE'S... If you can get a top pop, go for it. There is actually a market for such things, oddly enough.The question is , how good are you at grading? How good is the person who grades?
    "Compulsory altruism is none too altruistic." - me

    "All of us necessarily hold many casual opinions that are ludicrously wrong simply because life is far too short for us to think through even a small fraction of the topics that we come across." -- Julian Simon

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by windweaver77 View Post
    Some folks grade ASE'S... If you can get a top pop, go for it. There is actually a market for such things, oddly enough.The question is , how good are you at grading? How good is the person who grades?
    You're spot on with that, Josh. It surprises me too, but as you said, since there's market for it, so be it! Who the hell am I to think it's silly? When it comes to grading coins, I generally stick to the (old) U.S. Type coinage and/or Pre-33 gold. With bullion coinage, besides being able to recognize mishandling: wear, nicks, marks, poor strike, etc., I honestly don't think I could tell the difference between an MS-66, 67, 68, 69 or 70, yet I've literally handled hundreds of thousands of coins. And as has been said innumerable times, grading is subjective, but the criteria to determine the differences between such lofty grades is razor thin.

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by bronkster1967 View Post
    You're spot on with that, Josh. It surprises me too, but as you said, since there's market for it, so be it! Who the hell am I to think it's silly? When it comes to grading coins, I generally stick to the (old) U.S. Type coinage and/or Pre-33 gold. With bullion coinage, besides being able to recognize mishandling: wear, nicks, marks, poor strike, etc., I honestly don't think I could tell the difference between an MS-66, 67, 68, 69 or 70, yet I've literally handled hundreds of thousands of coins. And as has been said innumerable times, grading is subjective, but the criteria to determine the differences between such lofty grades is razor thin.
    MS65 is the highest i can judge a coin since i haven't come across enough MS65+ to form a mental experience to judge. I feel beyond MS66+ is mostly opinion and knowing the history of the coin (poor strike, die condition, etc). Unfortunately, it seem grader name and reputable plays a role in grading trust, even though all reputable and mainstream graders have their own subjective bias and view on things. That's why some unsatisfied owners break the slab and re-submit for grading, hoping for a better grade from a different grader or a grader having a good day. IE take a same coin and run through several graders independently, they would come back with different grade, even from the same grader on a different day.

    With today electronic imagery and AI, we can program a set of consistent criteria for each grade and do grading optically, maybe with human last input for eye appeal. Just like the sigma PM verifier, a portable optic imagiery verifier can open up more affordable and consistent grading. Every LCS would have one if available.
    Last edited by yellowsnow; 02-27-2023 at 07:12 PM.

  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by yellowsnow View Post
    MS65 is the highest i can judge a coin since i haven't come across enough MS65+ to form a mental experience to judge. I feel beyond MS66+ is mostly opinion and knowing the history of the coin (poor strike, die condition, etc). Unfortunately, it seem grader name and reputable plays a role in grading trust, even though all reputable and mainstream graders have their own subjective bias and view on things. That's why some unsatisfied owners break the slab and re-submit for grading, hoping for a better grade from a different grader or a grader having a good day. IE take a same coin and run through several graders independently, they would come back with different grade, even from the same grader on a different day.

    With today electronic imagery and AI, we can program a set of consistent criteria for each grade and do grading optically, maybe with human last input for eye appeal. Just like the sigma PM verifier, a portable optic imagiery verifier can open up more affordable and consistent grading. Every LCS would have one if available.

    it is nowadays certainly possible to set minima criteria for different grading layers, always starting from the minimal requirements to apply a certain grade number. I have no idea how that could be done, but Al has gone far in grading, nowadays grading sawnwood in the mills here is done by Al.
    Cllecting information and calculating the result is nowadays tremendous. One might sometimes disagree with the grading, but it all depends on the INPUT of the premisses, ( which are human appreciations) not the system.

    I think a similar same can be applied to coingrading ( or whatever else mass produced item ).

    Golditiki2+++

  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by bronkster1967 View Post
    You're spot on with that, Josh. It surprises me too, but as you said, since there's market for it, so be it! Who the hell am I to think it's silly? When it comes to grading coins, I generally stick to the (old) U.S. Type coinage and/or Pre-33 gold. With bullion coinage, besides being able to recognize mishandling: wear, nicks, marks, poor strike, etc., I honestly don't think I could tell the difference between an MS-66, 67, 68, 69 or 70, yet I've literally handled hundreds of thousands of coins. And as has been said innumerable times, grading is subjective, but the criteria to determine the differences between such lofty grades is razor thin.
    Even crazier is first day of release BS. Coins from a bin stuck into slabs and sold as special.

    If real first strikes coins, as in the very first strike from a brand new die. Coins then handled like a proof coin and not dumped into a bin with 10,000 other coins, that might be special.

    But then again how many overly polished dies, or dies made from old hubs, have been used by the mints? Bullion is bullion folks. Rare is not 10,000,000 "rare" year coins. Rare is one or one or one of a few.

    10,000,000 bullion coins, hoarded by dealers, being sold as rare is pure marketing. "Get them while you can" snake oil. Limit 100 per person. There's 10,000,000 of them. Somebody has them in their sticky fingers. It's not that they got melted and there's 5 left on the face of earth. Reminds me of "For one thin dime, I'll show you the greatest show on earth. No pushing there's room in the tent for all of you suckers... err people."
    Do your own due diligence

    I stand united with my friends & family in Canada who seek freedom.

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by LongDonSilver View Post
    Even crazier is first day of release BS. Coins from a bin stuck into slabs and sold as special.

    If real first strikes coins, as in the very first strike from a brand new die. Coins then handled like a proof coin and not dumped into a bin with 10,000 other coins, that might be special.

    But then again how many overly polished dies, or dies made from old hubs, have been used by the mints? Bullion is bullion folks. Rare is not 10,000,000 "rare" year coins. Rare is one or one or one of a few.

    10,000,000 bullion coins, hoarded by dealers, being sold as rare is pure marketing. "Get them while you can" snake oil. Limit 100 per person. There's 10,000,000 of them. Somebody has them in their sticky fingers. It's not that they got melted and there's 5 left on the face of earth. Reminds me of "For one thin dime, I'll show you the greatest show on earth. No pushing there's room in the tent for all of you suckers... err people."
    Yes, Sir. That's the way I see it too!

  7. #17

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    Rare is not always rare. 1960's. Morgan 1903-o. $1400. Then they found a few bags of 1000 coins each. Price fell to about $17. The GSA sales of the 1970's

    dropped over 900.000 1884-cc in uncirculated condition. Look at the price. I bought one for $28, nice unc piece. Paramount Coin Company just started using

    holders to sell the "Redfield Hoard". ms 60. 63. 65. that's all. Now. 61+ 62 62+ 63 63+ 64 64+. etc.I miss the old days when I was paid $1.75/hr. ( in silver )

    working on the peppermint farm for the summer. Still STUPIDME...

  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by stupidme View Post
    Rare is not always rare. 1960's. Morgan 1903-o. $1400. Then they found a few bags of 1000 coins each. Price fell to about $17. The GSA sales of the 1970's

    dropped over 900.000 1884-cc in uncirculated condition. Look at the price. I bought one for $28, nice unc piece. Paramount Coin Company just started using

    holders to sell the "Redfield Hoard". ms 60. 63. 65. that's all. Now. 61+ 62 62+ 63 63+ 64 64+. etc.I miss the old days when I was paid $1.75/hr. ( in silver )

    working on the peppermint farm for the summer. Still STUPIDME...
    Those are very good points. Though it may become less and less likely to find such hoards, it isn't impossible. There's just no telling when someone will "unearth" such a find from an old

    family safe or stash and bring it to market.

  9. #19
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    AGAIN; I am not a nuministic collector. my stack is generic, but trying to learn a little here. I know cleaning coins (to be graded) is a no-no but, what if there is just a little dirt or a bit of sticky dust. There must be a recommended way to prepare a coin for grading or, an OK way to freshen it up that won't ruin the authenticity. Right?? or NO.

    Ag guy
    live for today, admit your faults, do the right thing (even if you don't want to) & trust God!
    This life is the training of the soul for the life to come. (accept that we live in a fallen world)
    Whether you know it or not, you are a spiritual eternal being! Ag guy

  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ag guy View Post
    AGAIN; I am not a nuministic collector. my stack is generic, but trying to learn a little here. I know cleaning coins (to be graded) is a no-no but, what if there is just a little dirt or a bit of sticky dust. There must be a recommended way to prepare a coin for grading or, an OK way to freshen it up that won't ruin the authenticity. Right?? or NO.

    Ag guy
    Yes, there is a way to "clean" coins to remove sticky residue, dust, gum, various types of glue or the "green slime" found on many improperly stored (from the older PVC-poly vinyl chloride plastic holders/pages) coins that doesn't change the original surfaces of the coin. It doesn't always work, is easy to screw up and should never be attempted on possible high value numismatic coins. Obviously, if you want to remove some crap off of your worn, junk silver or generic bullion- that doesn't matter as much.

    This method is often done with a quick dip (like seconds only) in pure acetone, easily found in hardware stores, etc., very, very softly rubbed with a Q-tip end to remove the foreign residue, and then given a long bath in distilled water to remove all traces of the acetone and then patted dry, not rubbed. Do not use paper towels or similar items; try something that has chamois-level softness so as to not leave any scratches. The reason for the distilled water is that many of us have well water, which is often high in minerals that can leave spots on a coin- especially if not rinsed properly. If I'm not mistaken, fluoride is still added to city water, too.

    It is true though, that some collectors will still consider an acetone dip as "cleaning", but it's NOT THE SAME "cleaning" meant in coin collecting terms which means that you applied some sort of solution (like MS-70 or E Z Est- which are 2 of the most popular "dips" used) to brighten a coin by removing the tarnish. That in itself, is an iffy subject with die hard collectors because some like their coins bright and shiny, (IE they're generally more attractive as opposed to blotchy, uneven toning), yet some also believe that original surfaces, no matter how the coin turns out/looks in the end is how it's supposed to look, and if dipped too many times or is kept too long in such a solution, the coin(s) may or will come out washed out looking, cloudy or grayish, AKA less attractive. And even more so, some collectors like when a coin has acquired beautiful blue, purple or rainbow toning and will often pay extra to buy it. FYI: there are ways to create fake toning on coins also. A trained eye will be able to spot it right away and if it's an experienced collector or a coin dealer will automatically downgrade your coin(s) thereby repeating the fact that "it's been cleaned". You won't get anywhere near the coin's actual worth if you're attempting to sell it. Original surfaces/toning is usually the best way to go IMO, but to each his own.

    Personally, I look at it this way: how likely is it that a silver coin from the 1800's or even the earlier decades of the 1900's, that that coin while having been exposed to any contaminants in the air or anything touching its surfaces- cigarette, cigar or pipe smoke included, would remain shiny as the day it was minted? Is it possible? Sure. Is it likely? I kind of doubt it. Old time coin collectors often wrapped their coins in cloth, paper, or laid them out on shelved cabinets (if they had money) with exposure to whatever was in the air at the time. This often imparted toning on the coin's surface due to chemical reaction- especially the sulphur in old paper. Sometimes they rubbed them shiny with a piece of cloth if they were getting tarnished. That's often when you hear that a coin has an "old cleaning". Still cleaned- bad, but not quite as bad as if it were a more modern cleaning.

    There are other forms of cleaning which are even harsher to a coin's surface. Toothbrushes, wire brushes, steel wool, grinding wheels, baking soda, silver polish and/or anything like that will, whether one can see with the naked eye or not, leave microscopic lines on a coin's surface automatically deeming it to be harshly cleaned. Every coin dealer or serious collector will without a doubt "loupe" a coin to see it up close and personal, so they can determine wear, cleaning or damage of any type.

    I have heard of a method of shinying up coins using warm/hot water, a tray or bowl, hydrogen peroxide and vinegar or something, though I've never tried it. I've also heard of old copper coins being left in olive oil for months at a time. Again, I haven't tried that either.


    Bottom line is this: Anything that will change the original surface of a coin is bad. Removing a foreign substance off of a coin is okay, as long as it's done carefully. It may not come out looking the way you want it to exactly, but it'll look better. Don't do it or try it with high value coins. Oh, and if you're going to give a coin an acetone bath, make sure you don't use nail polish remover even though it often has acetone in it. It also has other additives which would probably be bad for the coin.
    Last edited by bronkster1967; 03-04-2023 at 05:58 PM.

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