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Thread: Russia & China could set international gold price based on physical gold trading

  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by AnotherDave View Post
    Surfsup, "cryptos", or at least Bitcoin, are a public ledger that cannot be gamed. That's nearly all that can be said about them. The rest of your points are how the public chooses to use them, and are external to their function.
    Internet websites are a public ledger as well, albeit manual. As a web developer in the past I can attest to how much plagiarism exists where a website pops up about anything, let's say a recipe for pierogis. People just copy/paste it. Web bots already know which websites have this text. All of it can be wiped in a moment. The public ledger you talk about is very similar. A blockchain virus can disable and wipe it all. Nothing beats a paper-backed physical ledger with a signature. Obviously I don't think the blockchain is as secure and anonymous as most. Evidence suggests I have a valid reason for not thinking the blockchain is all it's cracked up to be. In fact, the blockchain may be our worst nightmare. Imagine a backdoor into the blockchain and a govt or corporation instantly writing over the ledger to show you no longer own something, when you did a moment ago. No longer would there be proof. There still needs to exist a physical ledger. Nothing on a computer is secure.

    Quote Originally Posted by AnotherDave View Post
    How about let's talk about your proposed gold-backed micro payments, when the backers (cough, U.S. government) decide not to back them any more?
    I'm not sure what you are implying. If I give someone a gold 1/10th oz coin to pay for something like a shopping basket of groceries today and they accepted that as payment, the government doesn't "back me". In fact, let's go back to 1912 when JPMorgan testified before congress and said something like "the only thing that is money is gold". Most people value gold.

    Now, in terms of gold micropayments, the gold is converted into the currency of your choice (the currency in which the product is priced). If I buy something in the USA I charge it to my "gold" card, and the transaction is completed by converting (selling) a certain amount of grams into USD and those are used to pay. If I buy something in Europe, same thing happens except replace USD with Euro. It can be any one of a number of currencies. So just like a "gold backed Yuan" is not gold backed, but can be converted to gold instantly, so is the bill on my credit card. What difference does it make if I sell gold or used appliances to generate USD or Euros to pay for things I buy as long as I pay for those things in the currency the seller prices at? IMO it doesn't.

    I am simply pointing out that everything the crypto world thinks cryptos can do, they can't do 90% of it, and for the 10%, gold does it now, and does it better. the blockchain can be added as an additional layer of redundancy to gold - and is currently being worked on.

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by surfsup View Post
    Internet websites are a public ledger as well, albeit manual. As a web developer in the past I can attest to how much plagiarism exists where a website pops up about anything, let's say a recipe for pierogis. People just copy/paste it. Web bots already know which websites have this text. All of it can be wiped in a moment. The public ledger you talk about is very similar. A blockchain virus can disable and wipe it all. Nothing beats a paper-backed physical ledger with a signature. Obviously I don't think the blockchain is as secure and anonymous as most. Evidence suggests I have a valid reason for not thinking the blockchain is all it's cracked up to be. In fact, the blockchain may be our worst nightmare. Imagine a backdoor into the blockchain and a govt or corporation instantly writing over the ledger to show you no longer own something, when you did a moment ago. No longer would there be proof. There still needs to exist a physical ledger. Nothing on a computer is secure.



    I'm not sure what you are implying. If I give someone a gold 1/10th oz coin to pay for something like a shopping basket of groceries today and they accepted that as payment, the government doesn't "back me". In fact, let's go back to 1912 when JPMorgan testified before congress and said something like "the only thing that is money is gold". Most people value gold.

    Now, in terms of gold micropayments, the gold is converted into the currency of your choice (the currency in which the product is priced). If I buy something in the USA I charge it to my "gold" card, and the transaction is completed by converting (selling) a certain amount of grams into USD and those are used to pay. If I buy something in Europe, same thing happens except replace USD with Euro. It can be any one of a number of currencies. So just like a "gold backed Yuan" is not gold backed, but can be converted to gold instantly, so is the bill on my credit card. What difference does it make if I sell gold or used appliances to generate USD or Euros to pay for things I buy as long as I pay for those things in the currency the seller prices at? IMO it doesn't.

    I am simply pointing out that everything the crypto world thinks cryptos can do, they can't do 90% of it, and for the 10%, gold does it now, and does it better. the blockchain can be added as an additional layer of redundancy to gold - and is currently being worked on.
    Then you should know to Read The Fine Bitcoin Manual before going off on tangents regarding its blockchain.

    Regarding your gold micropayments, which world fiat issuer are you going to get to follow your plan? Venezuela? Argentina? The Federal Reserve?

    Some card issuer?!!
    Last edited by AnotherDave; 01-02-2018 at 10:56 AM. Reason: duplicate post

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by surfsup View Post
    Internet websites are a public ledger as well, albeit manual. As a web developer in the past I can attest to how much plagiarism exists where a website pops up about anything, let's say a recipe for pierogis. People just copy/paste it. Web bots already know which websites have this text. All of it can be wiped in a moment. The public ledger you talk about is very similar. A blockchain virus can disable and wipe it all. Nothing beats a paper-backed physical ledger with a signature. Obviously I don't think the blockchain is as secure and anonymous as most. Evidence suggests I have a valid reason for not thinking the blockchain is all it's cracked up to be. In fact, the blockchain may be our worst nightmare. Imagine a backdoor into the blockchain and a govt or corporation instantly writing over the ledger to show you no longer own something, when you did a moment ago. No longer would there be proof. There still needs to exist a physical ledger. Nothing on a computer is secure.



    I'm not sure what you are implying. If I give someone a gold 1/10th oz coin to pay for something like a shopping basket of groceries today and they accepted that as payment, the government doesn't "back me". In fact, let's go back to 1912 when JPMorgan testified before congress and said something like "the only thing that is money is gold". Most people value gold.

    Now, in terms of gold micropayments, the gold is converted into the currency of your choice (the currency in which the product is priced). If I buy something in the USA I charge it to my "gold" card, and the transaction is completed by converting (selling) a certain amount of grams into USD and those are used to pay. If I buy something in Europe, same thing happens except replace USD with Euro. It can be any one of a number of currencies. So just like a "gold backed Yuan" is not gold backed, but can be converted to gold instantly, so is the bill on my credit card. What difference does it make if I sell gold or used appliances to generate USD or Euros to pay for things I buy as long as I pay for those things in the currency the seller prices at? IMO it doesn't.

    I am simply pointing out that everything the crypto world thinks cryptos can do, they can't do 90% of it, and for the 10%, gold does it now, and does it better. the blockchain can be added as an additional layer of redundancy to gold - and is currently being worked on.
    Then you should know to Read The Fine Bitcoin Manual before going off on tangents regarding its blockchain.

    Regarding your gold micropayments, which world fiat issuer are you going to get to follow your plan? Venezuela? Argentina? The Federal Reserve?

    Some card issuer?!!

  4. #14
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    Apr 2009
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    12,391

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chump Change View Post
    Reading about cryptos has brought me to other aspects I hadn't considered

    I think I like the technology behind cryptos but I don't own any cryptos

    Thanks all for the clarity


    Nice! I can respect views from someone who is investigating even if they end up still a crypto antagonist. Glad to see this Chump Change.

  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by ynot2k View Post
    Nice! I can respect views from someone who is investigating even if they end up still a crypto antagonist. Glad to see this Chump Change.
    Crypto Antagonist

    LOL

    I like the way that rolls out

    LOL

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chump Change View Post
    Crypto Antagonist

    LOL

    I like the way that rolls out

    BTC and crypto is not perfect YET and it is the first competition of zero intrinsic values digit. The fiat with zero intrinsic values is charging "transaction fee" to keep numbers safe but not the values.

    All fiat banks does not create values but create numbers. The effort to create numbers is too easy and creating 10 trillion to mine the asteroids is easy. But to distribute the values fairly is a financial war.

    BTC and crypto should remain as a free numbers contract but same as fiat, there is no guarantee of values. The same with all online purchase and commerce the values will never be a fair trade.

    I foresee a gold/silver demands from physical forms as a true offgrid money. As the wildly created digits is possibly reaching millions of quadrillions, Gold price of 1 million/oz is possible unless Gold mine increase output by million times where every human on Earth own 100kg of Gold which is about 1 billion tonnes Gold. Today official number is too low at 187,000 tonnes which give each person 1 oz Gold only.
    He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors. ~ Thomas Jefferson

  7. #17

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    fascism = fiat monopoly = dictatorship
    He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors. ~ Thomas Jefferson

  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by SnakeEater View Post
    fascism = fiat monopoly = dictatorship
    The problem is, half the people LIKE IT, and want to force the rest into their socialist paradise.

  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by AnotherDave View Post
    Then you should know to Read The Fine Bitcoin Manual before going off on tangents regarding its blockchain.
    Not a tangent at all, very relevant, imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by AnotherDave View Post
    Regarding your gold micropayments, which world fiat issuer are you going to get to follow your plan? Venezuela? Argentina? The Federal Reserve?

    Some card issuer?!!
    I'm not sure if you're actually reading or understanding what I am writing. This already exists. It is a MasterCard. Additionally, it should be pointed out micropayments for assets exist in many markets. I'll mention another...micropayments for HOMES. Yes, homes. This is called a reverse mortgage. You collect a micropayment on your home, for your use to spend as you see fit. Once the home's asset is removed (debt equals the asset's value), the micropayments stop. If it didn't exist, it is not difficult to create this for any asset. Someone will gladly build a system to take another one's assets.

    Anyway...
    Last edited by surfsup; 01-02-2018 at 02:50 PM.

  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by surfsup View Post
    I would hardly refer to a society as advanced that thinks a crypto, which is literally nothing, is some sort of wealth. My opinion but...

    1) Math: CPU processing advances per year render advanced mathematical encryption from 5 years ago effectively obsolete - we learn of another crypto that gets hacked for $500M this weekend. Cryptos are not safe since the "cryptography" is dated. Hacks, FBI seizures, how is this believed to be secure?
    2) De-centralized: coinbase board member (who works for the FBI) recently states they tracked and convicted criminals solely on their use of Bitcoin. Obviously not de-ccentralized. How someone can think this is discrete from government's prying eyes is beyond me.
    3) Limited supply: Bitcoin has forked several times. The amount of new cryptos being created is infinite. The "supply" of cryptos will just become greater and greater. Ultimately people determine how many zeros can be added to the end of the total for any of them. The USD is already a crypto, with only 3% actually printed or coined, 97% crypto. People decide how many zeros to add to its total. We see how well that is going. Gold is finite, you have to dig it up. There is a physical cap that cannot be manipulated.
    4) Stability: Can't use cryptos in a power outage. Can't carry them in your pocket. In a negative interest world your cryptos, BTC or USD or whatever it is called, will be taken from you via negative interest - they must be kept online stored in a wallet. We already see "secure wallets" being introduced left and right.
    5) Secure: there is an internet kill switch. We all know this. It is fairly easy for someone to create and execute a blockchain kill switch. The moment a USB drive that contains a wallet from 100 years ago is connected to the internet, the wallet can be traced and swiped. Nothing backs up ownership like a physical receipt, title, statement, etc. Nothing.
    6) Confidence: or should I say gullibility? There is no actual confidence BTC can be used as money. A coupon? Sure. But not money. BTC trades as an investment, not money. The moment it is generally perceived the runup is over, imo it will crash to zero. Who wants to own something they don't feel they can sell at a higher price later?
    7) Insured: nope. If you are hacked or lose your crypto, you're on your own. Money in the "system" can be insured. Good luck with getting your cryptos back if you are the unfortunate one this week. The more wealth you accumulate in cryptos the larger the target.
    8) Functional: Cryptos cannot be used for anything. It is a zero and a one. Gold, silver, et al have industrial uses which keep growing, many of which we don't even know yet.
    9) History: Gold and Silver are considered money by the entire planet, by the combined largest GDP in the world (BRICS) and by the majority of the world population (again, BRICS). Their governments are telling their citizens to buy gold. Their CBs are gobbling up gold. Other alliances are doing the same (Ergodan, etc). We just saw another country tell their citizens they should all own at least 3 oz of physical gold. Their governments do not allow gold to leave the country. Their mining industries are some of the largest producers. The BRICS are producers. The West are mainly consumers and service-oriented GDP.
    10) Blockchain: the blockchain will stop being a backing of nothing and will eventually start backing real assets. These assets will be physical stores of wealth: homes, gold, cars, etc. to back up physical receipts, titles, etc. The blockchain is the value and have nothing to do with cryptos. Cryptos are again, literally nothing. Just a math equation that a 2030 pocket calculator will likely solve in 4 minutes time.
    11) speed: cryptos are too slow. 10 minutes or more to transact.
    12) frugality: cryptos are too expensive to use. $1-$50 to transact makes no sense.
    13) volatility: don't need to say anything more.

    I am looking at cryptos today as a momentary blip on the human radar. This too shall pass. All IMO, of course. Gold does everything fiat and cryptos do now and so much more. Soon it will be backed by the blockchain as another level of redundancy. Gold micro-payments systems will follow just like bitcoin has them. At that point, there is no need for nothing-crypto when you can have crypto-gold based on your physical holding. Goldmoney is almost there allowing you to use a gold backed credit card. Pretty soon it will simply be gold-backed micro payments.
    the problem with gold backed credit system is the trustworthiness of the custodian of the gold.. Can u guarantee that Goldmoney who is holding your gold won't get hacked or be un-corrupted forever? with crypto, the governance is built in. Goldmoney is still a 3rd party holding your gold. At least with crypto, you the only one who can access it.

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