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Thread: ANACS vs NGC and PCGS

  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chump Change View Post
    Obvious to me, many have not really seen the crap that comes from ICG...
    I always thought ICG stood for "I Can't Grade."

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by SILVER PATRON View Post
    I always thought ICG stood for "I Can't Grade."
    Even that saying is giving them far more respect than has been earned..

  3. #13

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    Interesting discussion as I sit on the sidelines. Most of my numismatic stuff was bought before there were any grading services. I've bought a couple graded coins lately, but I look at the coin, not the grading service to decide if I'm buying. Of course, I'm holding long term, not flipping.

  4. #14

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    None of the services is even close to perfect, but perfection cannot be expected in a field where the personal preference of graders can be swayed by seemingly insignificant differences.

    I've submitted regularly since about 1990 and, in my experience, PCGS grading has been the most consistent, but occasionally slips to surges by NGC. I've switched allegiance between both multiple times, when the grading standards of one have temporarily leapfrogged those of the other.

    ANACS has always been third in my book, except when it comes to error coinage, where they are the most resourceful, and least non-committal in attributing error coins. Both PCGS and NGC have chicken____ error departments, that will cop out and decline to invest the time to give a definite position on a coin requiring significant time and research. ANACS is still definitely more of a service and less of a profit mill than the other two.

    With that written, my last four submissions have all been to PCGS.

  5. #15

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    No one has ever said the grading services get it right on every coin. By my estimation over the past 10 yrs, they get it right from 60-80% of the time. But if one looks over the overall work of both firms over the past 20 years, there is no question that PCGS is more conservative over that period. There will always be exceptions where you can find a nicer NGC coin. Also note that the decent and strong NGC coins are constantly pulled out of their holders and transferred to PCGS holders...where they will fetch more money. It makes it harder and harder to find NGC coins.

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by SILVER PATRON View Post
    I always thought ICG stood for "I Can't Grade."
    Quote Originally Posted by mechanic4hire3 View Post
    Even that saying is giving them far more respect than has been earned..




    Quote Originally Posted by Numisgold View Post
    No one has ever said the grading services get it right on every coin. By my estimation over the past 10 yrs, they get it right from 60-80% of the time. But if one looks over the overall work of both firms over the past 20 years, there is no question that PCGS is more conservative over that period. There will always be exceptions where you can find a nicer NGC coin. Also note that the decent and strong NGC coins are constantly pulled out of their holders and transferred to PCGS holders...where they will fetch more money. It makes it harder and harder to find NGC coins.
    I would guess the same thing.
    I picked up some First Strikes NGC coins figuring they would go up in value as some will get recerted through PCGS, hoping to get that 69 designation that was hard to get back then from PCGS.

  7. #17

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    There was a point several years ago where ICG and ANACS basically swapped personnel.

    From my fairly extensive numismatic experience (submitting coins to multiple services), the current yellow-label ANACS are the strictest graded, with PCGS up there as well. NGC is somewhat less strict, but still market acceptible, for the most part.

  8. #18

    Default Cleaned coin? I don't think so ...

    I got back a couple of coins I submitted to ANACS and was surprised to see they graded one coin AU50 Details. Many experts have seen this coin, including one from PCGS, and only a single coin dealer thought it was cleaned. I think ANACS got it wrong on this one. I'll break it out of the slab to submit it to one of the other services. If that other service agrees with me, ANACS will have queered their business with me.

  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by CsgTheSilverStacker View Post
    Do you remember the story of The Emperor's New Clothes? Actually, the Emperor wasn't wearing any clothes but everyone pretended he was because they thought that was the safe thing to do. Except for an innocent child who had not yet learned the art of self deception, and who cried out: "But the Emperor is naked!"

    I don't know who the Emperor is in this story, or the child, but I know one thing: People investing blindly in ANACS-Certified coins are in for a rude awakening someday. Why? Because the graders at ANACS don't have the slightest idea what the hell they are doing except making the American Numismatic Association a ton of money! I wish I didn't have to say that, and I hope that this is the last article I will write on this subject, though I doubt it.

    The strangest thing about the ANACS certificate controversy is that in private
    conversations even the dealers whose ads support ANACS-graded coins laugh-about what a farce it is. And they know they are off the hook because they aren't the one certifying the grade; the A.N.A. is. In a few years, when a coin buyer returns with that MS-65/65 coin that really isn't as salable as the certificate suggests, the seller is going to look
    him right in the eye and say, "That's only the A.N.A. 's opinion of the grade."

    For a while I thought - no I dreamed - that ANACS would improve its ability to
    grade coins. Unfortunately, just the opposite has-happened.- They've gotten much worse. In the rush to crank out the thousands· and thousands of coins being sent to them for "the official grade" ANACS graders have become totally unpredictable. Cleaned up coins slip by as MS-63 or better, every Uncirculated $20 Gold Piece is graded AU, Gem Silver Dollars
    are called 60, 63 or 65 at various times of day and true AU coins get the MS designation. I know. I've seen the coins. Yes, many are accurately graded, too, but only by luck.

    True, they catch a lot of whizzed coins, and this would have been the first
    valid function and test of the ANACS grading service. But they've moved out to the deep water before learning to swim. And now I am afraid - no I'm positive - that disaster lurks.

    Are dealers buying ANACS graded coins? We've written to numerous firms who claim to "need" such coins. Yes, they will buy, out no less selectively than if the coin did not have the precious certificate. Our finding is that no rare coin dealer will purchase a coin.
    commensurate with its ANACS-certified grade unless he fully agrees with that grade. In our attempts to sell such coins, we have been unable to get any fair bid 90% of the time.

    Yet in today's soft coin market dealers are using any legitimate marketing technique to sell their coins. And "Guaranteed ANACS Grading" works. Mostly it works with newcomers, but it even fools a lot of people who've been around. Will it fool you? I hope not. Because there are some excellent buys these days - even some genuine bargains - but
    you'll never get any if you prefer a "guaranteed" coin to a good one.

    Without being overly cynical, I just want to go on record as saying that ANACS Certified coin buyers are really getting what they deserve, as are those who shop for coins only by price. The American Numismatic Association has been here since 1891. It's a shame that they're being used by coin dealers, but at least they're getting paid for it.

    Incidentally, over a year ago we published an interview with Tom DeLorey, head of the ANACS grading service. In this interview, Tom DeLorey, explained that an ANACS grade bears no relationship to market value, and a coin they grade technically as Uncirculated could be less valuable than a more attractive coin they grade conservatively as About Unc. Before
    you buy ANACS-Certified coins as "the final answer" write to the A.N.A. and ask them if they recommend that you buy certified coins over non-certified coins. They don't. And ask your dealer if the ANACS grade is the only true grade. It isn't.

    I have had to replicate this and it took some time to do so. I believe the article was written by "Les Fox" as it is signed on the last page.

    Thank you to the mods for permission for replicating an article that is 30+ years old....


    csg
    .

    Coins that still carry their ANACS certification from 30 years ago (the old photo-certificates) are often worth a premium.
    Last edited by dcarr; 03-08-2013 at 04:36 AM.

  10. #20

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    ANACS didn't start putting coins in slabs until around 1989-1990. During most of the 1980's they used certificates with photos. Their only "competition" were the slabs put out by Accugrade. Having bought a number of ANACS certified coins throughout the 1980's I can say that I was always very pleased with the grading. At one time a local dealer had multiple 1854 large cents graded MS64-65 RED and RB from ANACS. I bought every one of those and resubmitted to NGC....all came back the same grade. I doubled my money on every one of them. The last paper certed ANACS coin I ran into was an early 1800's capped bust $5 gold piece graded XF40 "planchet flaw." Next time I saw the coin it was in a PCGS MS62 holder. It was a lovely coin too. ANACS was far too critical of such a minor, mint made flaw on a full luster coin. For the most part I think ANACS did ok in the 1980's.

    Les Fox was a major dealer in better date choice and gem silver dollars in the 1970's and 1980's. His business seemed to go downhill once the slabbing era came about. I wonder how many of his client's raw coins made the same grade or higher in 1986-1990 when submitted to PCGS or NGC? For the most part, the majority of dealers operating in the 1974-1986 era graded coins quite liberally. You'd have been hard pressed not to have gotten screwed unless you were well schooled in advanced grading techniques. It was literally the Wild Wild West. The advent of slabbing brought that era to a close. Ironically, during the 1996-2008 period we slipped a bit and have headed back in the wrong direction.

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