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torpedoman
08-28-2010, 06:27 PM
close fanny and freddie write off all loans as paid. the money freed up will act as a better stimulus to the economy than anything the government can devise.The only downside is there would be no way for the politicians to line their and their buds pockets. with the continuing bailouts of these two it would be cheaper in the long run.

Blagio
08-29-2010, 07:33 PM
Impose a $25,000 per head penalty to all corporations who have green card or VISA workers within the U.S. This will lower unemployment and "stimulate" the economy instead of having U.S. dollars spent overseas.

B

mespe
08-29-2010, 07:58 PM
Impose a $25,000 per head penalty to all corporations who have green card or VISA workers within the U.S. This will lower unemployment and "stimulate" the economy instead of having U.S. dollars spent overseas.

B

Problem with that is most US citizens won't work for min wage at poultry houses, or pick tomatoes, or peaches etc. Think about the labor every time you buy boneless/skinless chicken breasts for 99 a pound.

As far as fixing the economy, loan forgiveness works for me, as long as my mortgage is included, otherwise no way.

Here's my idea on how to stimulate the economy. Create a nation-wide lottery, where every ticket is a winner. Some tickets win you a GM vehicle, some a bottle of Jack Daniels. Every ticket wins a prize GREATER than the $10.00 ticket price.

Every item is Made in the U.S.A. (or at least 50% assembled int he US)

Just about every business can provide some type of prize, be it a pizza, a case of canned corn, or a selection of batteries. If subsidized by the Fed's the prizes could have a min MSRP of $20.

Lottery ticket sales would create a lot of velocity in money.

Craigslist would have to create a special heading for trading of lottery tickets.

The above lottery ticket idea is mine, and I have plenty of ideas, I was once labeled the "Idea Man" at a former employer. If your business is struggling, in this economy, how about a creative solution - email me and let me exercise a few brian muscles. :D

Givemegold
08-29-2010, 08:41 PM
Job Creation. We need a lot more than we lost.

Silvercoin
08-30-2010, 10:07 AM
As far as fixing the economy, loan forgiveness works for me, as long as my mortgage is included, otherwise no way.




If that's the plan, I need to ditch my responsible spending/saving habits and start running up a large debt I don't intend to repay.

These days being financially irresponsible pays rich dividends.


Just about every business can provide some type of prize, be it a pizza, a case of canned corn, or a selection of batteries. If subsidized by the Fed's the prizes could have a min MSRP of $20.

You do realise all the spending is just an addition to the debt. Sooner or later, people will stop buying US govt debt and interest rates will do a moon shot. All that is taken on debt today has to be paid for tommorrow. Today's stimulus are tommorrow's cutbacks. What happens when this lottery scam finishes? Does the economy go back into the toilet this time with even more debt.

ukjw1
08-30-2010, 01:39 PM
like mespe said, Americans wont be out in tomato fields working for under min wage and maybe not even min wage, and we couldn't sell these goods today if we paid the pickers min wage...the wages to produce these goods will rise which will increase the price of the goods for everyone else...then will likely result in a demand change and so on

AR15AU
08-30-2010, 02:03 PM
close fanny and freddie write off all loans as paid. the money freed up will act as a better stimulus to the economy than anything the government can devise.The only downside is there would be no way for the politicians to line their and their buds pockets. with the continuing bailouts of these two it would be cheaper in the long run.

Better than what is currently being done, but would still disenfranchise a large segment of the population. The poor who never invested in the real estate ponzi, and the rich who paid cash.

IMHO, a more productive measure would be to just shut down large segments of the government, and declare zero income tax for the next two years, followed by a flat 10% tax for all. Hundreds of thousand of tax preparers and tax compliance personnel would be freed up to do more productive things. And there would be money flowing into capitalized projects like never before.

Carpenter
08-30-2010, 02:28 PM
like mespe said, Americans wont be out in tomato fields working for under min wage and maybe not even min wage, and we couldn't sell these goods today if we paid the pickers min wage...the wages to produce these goods will rise which will increase the price of the goods for everyone else...then will likely result in a demand change and so on

If Americans pick tomatoes for a severely devalued dollar wage, minimum wage will compete on world markets.

The problem being (or when you think about, the solution to the problem) we'll no longer be able to afford Chinese,
or any others, imports.

In turn, without consumption by Americans, other economies falter, dragging down their currencies.

DayStar
08-30-2010, 02:45 PM
If Americans pick tomatoes for a severely devalued dollar wage, minimum wage will compete on world markets.

The problem being (or when you think about, the solution to the problem) we'll no longer be able to afford Chinese,
or any others, imports.

In turn, without consumption by Americans, other economies falter, dragging down their currencies.


Not to mention all of the out of work tax preparers that won't be buying anything!

DayStar

ukjw1
08-30-2010, 09:08 PM
If Americans pick tomatoes for a severely devalued dollar wage, minimum wage will compete on world markets.

The problem being (or when you think about, the solution to the problem) we'll no longer be able to afford Chinese,
or any others, imports.

In turn, without consumption by Americans, other economies falter, dragging down their currencies.

your looking down the road with all these variables...i was just looking at today, right now

Jonathon Ross
08-30-2010, 09:12 PM
Get rid of our socialist President and his socialist majority congress. That would be a good start!

asusenior
08-30-2010, 09:34 PM
Stop fiddling with the economy and let the damn thing collapse on it's own. The less the gov does "something" about it, the quicker you'll see a real recovery. Jim Willie: "THE UNITED STATES WILL BEGIN A RECOVERY WHEN THE TOO BIG TO FAIL BANKS ARE PLOWED UNDER."

adams684
08-30-2010, 09:44 PM
your looking down the road with all these variables...i was just looking at today, right now

The problem is ukjw1, your using the same instant gratification approach to fixing the problems that the government uses.
Tomorrow always comes, and with it comes the price, on top of the compounded interest that is now owed for the fast fix.

Carpenter
08-30-2010, 09:50 PM
your looking down the road with all these variables...i was just looking at today, right now

Yesterday, today was tommorow.
Mespe was advocating loan forgiveness.

.........

As far as fixing the economy, loan forgiveness works for me, as long as my mortgage is included, otherwise no way.


If we forgive loans across the board, our currency will tank, and Wally-World will be stocked with high priced imports.

A yuan will buy a wheel barrow full of dollars.
And it'll be cheaper to wipe your :eek:ss with the money you earn picking tomatoes than to buy toilet paper at Wal-Mart.

asusenior
08-30-2010, 10:01 PM
Loan forgiveness means telling creditors and savers to kiss my a$$. There's NO free lunch. What better way to destroy the integrity of the financial system than to do something as absurd.

ukjw1
08-30-2010, 10:05 PM
The problem is ukjw1, your using the same instant gratification approach to fixing the problems that the government uses.
Tomorrow always comes, and with it comes the price, on top of the compounded interest that is now owed for the fast fix.

yea i know tomorrow comes and the price comes which is why i accounted for the price spike that would come...i never proposed a fix lol i just said what would happen if we suddenly stopped paying illegals to do these jobs, i never said it was good or bad...it wasnt that serious, i wasnt trying to get into deep details with variables and discuss how that would evolve

If i didnt see tomorrow or consequences i would have simply said "stop letting illegals work here for so cheap"

ukjw1
08-30-2010, 10:06 PM
Yesterday, today was tommorow.
Mespe was advocating loan forgiveness.





i was only talking about his first line....not the rest of it

keepitlow
08-30-2010, 10:24 PM
Follow the advice of Victor Lebow...


"Our enormously productive economy demands that we make consumption our way of life, that we convert the buying and use of goods into rituals, that we seek our spiritual satisfactions, our ego satisfactions, in consumption...We need things consumed, burned up, worn out, replaced, and discarded at an ever increasing pace. We need to have people eat, drink, dress, ride, live, with ever more complicated and, therefore, constantly more expensive consumption."

Victor Lebow was a 20th century economist and retail analyst, perhaps best known for his quotation regarding the formulation of American consumer capitalism found in his paper "Price Competition in 1955"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Lebow

Carpenter
08-30-2010, 10:35 PM
Follow the advice of Victor Lebow...


"Our enormously productive economy demands that we make consumption our way of life, that we convert the buying and use of goods into rituals, that we seek our spiritual satisfactions, our ego satisfactions, in consumption...We need things consumed, burned up, worn out, replaced, and discarded at an ever increasing pace. We need to have people eat, drink, dress, ride, live, with ever more complicated and, therefore, constantly more expensive consumption."

Victor Lebow was a 20th century economist and retail analyst, perhaps best known for his quotation regarding the formulation of American consumer capitalism found in his paper "Price Competition in 1955"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Lebow

If that treadmill doesn't get some "grease" soon, it'll come to a gut-wrenching stop with dire consequences.

The promotion of "glitz and flash" started in the fifties at near the apex of dollar strength.
The result of borrowing to " keep up with the jones' " has led to the destruction of our country.

We have madison ave., and weak minds, to thank for our plight.

"Play now, pay later" has come home to roost.

GS_Stacker
08-31-2010, 02:19 AM
Professor Steve Keen

What Bernanke Doesnt Understand about Deflation (http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/)

JudyG

Goldfingerer
08-31-2010, 05:35 AM
All America needs to get things going again is good paying jobs for the middle class. In other words, we need a manufacturing base again.

That's why China and India have such booming economies. They are actually making things that THEY consume as well as the rest of the world.

Manufacturing is what made America great to begin with. We need to impose Tariffs on imports and crank our factories back up. Yeah, it might cause a trade war, but you know what, were sinking anyway. Globalization is what is destroying America because it's lowering the living standards of our middle class, to those of the slave wage countries.

Unless we address this, our nation is finished. We can't all work at low paying retail jobs. We need a manufacturing base.

ukjw1
08-31-2010, 05:49 AM
All America needs to get things going again is good paying jobs for the middle class. In other words, we need a manufacturing base again.

That's why China and India have such booming economies. They are actually making things that THEY consume as well as the rest of the world.

Manufacturing is what made America great to begin with. We need to impose Tariffs on imports and crank our factories back up. Yeah, it might cause a trade war, but you know what, were sinking anyway. Globalization is what is destroying America because it's lowering the living standards of our middle class, to those of the slave wage countries.

Unless we address this, our nation is finished. We can't all work at low paying retail jobs. We need a manufacturing base.

Instead of tariffs why don't we discuss cutting of capital gains tax first? and dozens of other taxes such as unemployment or SS that burden companies?

I dont think you can simply just impose big tariffs to solve the problem...do you even realize how big those tariffs would need to be? We also need a massive fall in wages to include cutting of benefits. I dont feel very "free" if i cant purchase goods from around the world without a massive price spike due to my government.

Carpenter
08-31-2010, 08:04 PM
All America needs to get things going again is good paying jobs for the middle class. In other words, we need a manufacturing base again.

That's why China and India have such booming economies. They are actually making things that THEY consume as well as the rest of the world.

Manufacturing is what made America great to begin with. We need to impose Tariffs on imports and crank our factories back up. Yeah, it might cause a trade war, but you know what, were sinking anyway. Globalization is what is destroying America because it's lowering the living standards of our middle class, to those of the slave wage countries.

Unless we address this, our nation is finished. We can't all work at low paying retail jobs. We need a manufacturing base.

Sounds good but.


Software engineers, sales staff, financial analysts and factory workers all earn more in China than India.

I read a story a while back, Mexican farmers were complaining that Chinese imports of jalepeno peppers were cutting their prices.

WTF, how can you grow it in China, ship it to Mexico, and still cut Mexican labor?

We can't compete with that.

DenariiForMe
08-31-2010, 08:28 PM
Three things must happen to get the economy moving in a healthy way, and all without even touching the near-impossible-to-unwind issue of the monetary system.

1. Total liquidation of all bad debt through the market. To do this: a) sell into the open market or write off as worthless all assets owned by the government or the Fed, b) stop all subsidization of consumer goods and credit, c) pledge no more bailouts of any kind under any conditions, d) let nature clean house.

2. Massive reduction in the burden of government. Balance the budget through spending cuts, then cut spending and taxes equally by some large amount. The first items to go would be defense spending and non-elderly related social services.

3. Major regulatory reform. Didn't we just do that, yea....no. This is complicated, but basically the aim would be to eliminate as many regulations as possible to reduce start-up costs. One approach might be to have tiers of regulation for different sized corporations, with the heavier reporting burdens falling on the larger ones who can better bear the costs. Then there are many specific problems. For example, ratings agencies should not have to be licensed by government; that would allow for greater competition and less corruption or complacency on the part of the agencies. Another one, abolish the FDIC and similar insurance programs, because they create complacency on the part of depositors. Basically, anything that intereferes with the invisible hand of collective self-interest must be scrapped.

Markets only work if they are truly free. This concept I've understood for a long time intellectually, but I've been getting it at a more basic or practical level recently. I'm sure some of you are like me in that you sometimes come across some new investment possibility, maybe something where there seems to be a garanteed arbitrage opportunity. It looks great, then you run the numbers, think about it some more, and realize that it can't be because the market is efficient. If there were such an arbitrage opportunity, people would have already taken advantage of it, and it would be no more. Government interference in markets is like creating a legally garanteed arbitrage opportunity for someone, and not for others of course. It creates perverse distortions, which are generally bad for everyone except whoever the law favors, and which can certainly be unpredictable.

That's my spiel..

Stormdancer
08-31-2010, 08:36 PM
Three things must happen to get the economy moving in a healthy way, and all without even touching the near-impossible-to-unwind issue of the monetary system.

1. Total liquidation of all bad debt through the market. To do this: a) sell into the open market or write off as worthless all assets owned by the government or the Fed, b) stop all subsidization of consumer goods and credit, c) pledge no more bailouts of any kind under any conditions, d) let nature clean house.

2. Massive reduction in the burden of government. Balance the budget through spending cuts, then cut spending and taxes equally by some large amount. The first items to go would be defense spending and non-elderly related social services.

3. Major regulatory reform. Didn't we just do that, yea....no. This is complicated, but basically the aim would be to eliminate as many regulations as possible to reduce start-up costs. One approach might be to have tiers of regulation for different sized corporations, with the heavier reporting burdens falling on the larger ones who can better bear the costs. Then there are many specific problems. For example, ratings agencies should not have to be licensed by government; that would allow for greater competition and less corruption or complacency on the part of the agencies. Another one, abolish the FDIC and similar insurance programs, because they create complacency on the part of depositors. Basically, anything that intereferes with the invisible hand of collective self-interest must be scrapped.

Markets only work if they are truly free. This concept I've understood for a long time intellectually, but I've been getting it at a more basic or practical level recently. I'm sure some of you are like me in that you sometimes come across some new investment possibility, maybe something where there seems to be a garanteed arbitrage opportunity. It looks great, then you run the numbers, think about it some more, and realize that it can't be because the market is efficient. If there were such an arbitrage opportunity, people would have already taken advantage of it, and it would be no more. Government interference in markets is like creating a legally garanteed arbitrage opportunity for someone, and not for others of course. It creates perverse distortions, which are generally bad for everyone except whoever the law favors, and which can certainly be unpredictable.

That's my spiel..

Run for President and you got my vote :)

There is no painless way out of this mess. If we "let nature clean" house we get a couple of bitter years while we rebuild a balanced foundation and start making things again. The kids will have a shot at a decent life.

The way we're going it'll take 10 years of misery and no guarantee it won't drag out twenty before it falls apart sufficiently to scrap and replace.

Get rid of this fiat currency junk and take control of money away from private interest, make banks 100% reserve transaction processors and cut government by about 80% we'd climb out of this hole in very short order.

asusenior
08-31-2010, 08:42 PM
Run for President and you got my vote :)



I'll second that.

Zephaniah
08-31-2010, 08:42 PM
The demise of the American economy isn't merely due to a series of economic policies. It is a controlled demolition... that was clearly forseeable before Free Trade kicked in.

The multinationals and international bankers have engineered this process in their favor... and it won't stop until their global government is securely in place. Actually you could argue it already is well under way, and fairly secure already, hence all the G-20 calls for New World Order. All that's left is divvying up the spoils amongst tptb.

Too big to fail has another meaning... too big to stop.

DenariiForMe
08-31-2010, 08:51 PM
History's on our side as well.


The economic situation in 1920 was grim. By that year unemployment had jumped from 4 percent to nearly 12 percent, and GNP declined 17 percent. No wonder, then, that Secretary of Commerce Herbert Hoover falsely characterized as a supporter of laissez-faire economics urged President Harding to consider an array of interventions to turn the economy around. Hoover was ignored.

Instead of "fiscal stimulus," Harding cut the government's budget nearly in half between 1920 and 1922. The rest of Harding's approach was equally laissez-faire. Tax rates were slashed for all income groups. The national debt was reduced by one-third.

The Federal Reserve's activity, moreover, was hardly noticeable. As one economic historian puts it, "Despite the severity of the contraction, the Fed did not move to use its powers to turn the money supply around and fight the contraction."[2] By the late summer of 1921, signs of recovery were already visible. The following year, unemployment was back down to 6.7 percent and it was only 2.4 percent by 1923.

http://mises.org/daily/3788

We speedly recovered from the depression of 1920 because of a massive reduction in the burden which government represents to the productive, private economy, and because of a lack of intervention which allowed those newly available resources to be efficiently realloacted.

We barely recovered from the depression of 1929 in spite of, not because of, government expansion and interference.

And the thing to ponder after reading the article might be, don't the boys at the Fed and Treasury know about this? And the answer I'd give you is yessir, absolutely.

Goldfingerer
09-01-2010, 05:56 AM
Three things must happen to get the economy moving in a healthy way, and all without even touching the near-impossible-to-unwind issue of the monetary system.

1. Total liquidation of all bad debt through the market. To do this: a) sell into the open market or write off as worthless all assets owned by the government or the Fed, b) stop all subsidization of consumer goods and credit, c) pledge no more bailouts of any kind under any conditions, d) let nature clean house.

2. Massive reduction in the burden of government. Balance the budget through spending cuts, then cut spending and taxes equally by some large amount. The first items to go would be defense spending and non-elderly related social services.

3. Major regulatory reform. Didn't we just do that, yea....no. This is complicated, but basically the aim would be to eliminate as many regulations as possible to reduce start-up costs. One approach might be to have tiers of regulation for different sized corporations, with the heavier reporting burdens falling on the larger ones who can better bear the costs. Then there are many specific problems. For example, ratings agencies should not have to be licensed by government; that would allow for greater competition and less corruption or complacency on the part of the agencies. Another one, abolish the FDIC and similar insurance programs, because they create complacency on the part of depositors. Basically, anything that intereferes with the invisible hand of collective self-interest must be scrapped.

Markets only work if they are truly free. This concept I've understood for a long time intellectually, but I've been getting it at a more basic or practical level recently. I'm sure some of you are like me in that you sometimes come across some new investment possibility, maybe something where there seems to be a garanteed arbitrage opportunity. It looks great, then you run the numbers, think about it some more, and realize that it can't be because the market is efficient. If there were such an arbitrage opportunity, people would have already taken advantage of it, and it would be no more. Government interference in markets is like creating a legally garanteed arbitrage opportunity for someone, and not for others of course. It creates perverse distortions, which are generally bad for everyone except whoever the law favors, and which can certainly be unpredictable.

That's my spiel..

That all does exactly NOTHING to put people back to work. That just ensures that big corporations will further oppress the poor in America by outsourcing more and more jobs overseas.

I can agree about liquidating the bad debt and reducing the size of government, but you must do something to help the middle class in this country.
and the way you do that is by taxing imports to the point that it makes more economic sense for corporations to make stuff here.

And don't start regurgiating the smoot halley nonsense. LIke I said, we are dying as a country anyway. We have to do something to bring back jobs.

DayStar
09-01-2010, 07:52 AM
That all does exactly NOTHING to put people back to work. That just ensures that big corporations will further oppress the poor in America by outsourcing more and more jobs overseas.

I can agree about liquidating the bad debt and reducing the size of government, but you must do something to help the middle class in this country.
and the way you do that is by taxing imports to the point that it makes more economic sense for corporations to make stuff here.

And don't start regurgiating the smoot halley nonsense. LIke I said, we are dying as a country anyway. We have to do something to bring back jobs.

It does do something to put people back to work after the debt liquidation, and that is a prerequisite to any real growth. Debt liquidation and reduction of government allows people to start saving and provide capital on which businesses may grow. Getting rid of the debt burden and the goverment tax burden would be a genuinely great producer of jobs in the intermediate term. Being rid of debt and govt would let people do cottage industries from which they are now prohibited. For example, back in the 30s and 40s there were small canneries built on large farms. When the crops came in, they took them to the end of the field and put them up in cans. The feds passed a law saying this was unsafe. You gotta have stainless steel cookery to run a canning plant. Well, mom and pop could not afford to retool with stainless steel, so they closed. Later, Clinton got regulations for meat packing that have squeezed many small meat packers out of business. Also, unrealistic waste management regulations are forcing all but the largest meat producers out of business. Already in Canada you have to use a govt licensed meat packer to cut up your moose or steer, and they are booked months in advance. Many, many small producers are out of business. These very reasonable practices could thrive once again, IF the govt would get out of the way. California has passed onerous (and unreasonable) diesel truck emission standards that is going to shut down many dump truck companies and CUT OFF! many interstate truckers from entering CA! What effect do you think reducing govt regulation might have on creating jobs in this situation?

DayStar

asusenior
09-01-2010, 11:15 AM
That all does exactly NOTHING to put people back to work. That just ensures that big corporations will further oppress the poor in America by outsourcing more and more jobs overseas.

I can agree about liquidating the bad debt and reducing the size of government, but you must do something to help the middle class in this country.
and the way you do that is by taxing imports to the point that it makes more economic sense for corporations to make stuff here.

And don't start regurgiating the smoot halley nonsense. LIke I said, we are dying as a country anyway. We have to do something to bring back jobs.

Denarli's proposal will eventually put middle class to work. The way you bring back jobs is NOT through taxes and tariffs. That just makes things more expensive and less competitive. Also, expect retaliatory tariffs taken by opposing countries.

The government has been stifling manufacturing and job growth for decades due to onerous regulations, stiff taxes, unions, and fear of litigations. Reducing the burden of those things will surely improve the state of the industry. But even better, is to switch to a gold backed money system which will discourage running up large trade deficits in the first place.

johndaniels
09-01-2010, 11:49 AM
If that's the plan, I need to ditch my responsible spending/saving habits and start running up a large debt I don't intend to repay.

These days being financially irresponsible pays rich dividends.



forget financial responsibility, and any moral obligation to banks and corporations.

they have no moral obligations to you.

if you really look at it; morality was a creation that benefits the immoral.

DenariiForMe
09-01-2010, 12:03 PM
It does do something to put people back to work after the debt liquidation, and that is a prerequisite to any real growth. Debt liquidation and reduction of government allows people to start saving and provide capital on which businesses may grow.

Exactly, debt liquidation is not a goal unto itself. Who likes bankruptcies? The point is to flush out of the system all the misallocations of resources and inefficiencies that generated the boom/bust in the first place. Once that's accomplished, the trick is avoiding further interference.

It sounds great to suggest creating jobs for the middle class, and I agree that a strong middle class is essential for a healthy, republican America; the question is, how do you create one? If your answer is some kind of top-down centrally planned economy, with sudisidies, tax credits, or other manipulations designed to promote the middle class, you've missed the point. That meddling is the cause of the decline of the middle class and American economy in general. At best, central planning works for a while for some people at the expense of others - usually the well-connected at the expense of the less-well-connected. Free markets work for everyone equally, as long as they remain free - which obviously is hard to do because the temptation to interfere is so great, especially among politicians who get to buy-off their constituencies with other people's money...but that's a subject for another day.

Givemegold
09-01-2010, 01:11 PM
Exactly, debt liquidation is not a goal unto itself. Who likes bankruptcies? The point is to flush out of the system all the misallocations of resources and inefficiencies that generated the boom/bust in the first place. Once that's accomplished, the trick is avoiding further interference.

It sounds great to suggest creating jobs for the middle class, and I agree that a strong middle class is essential for a healthy, republican America; the question is, how do you create one? If your answer is some kind of top-down centrally planned economy, with sudisidies, tax credits, or other manipulations designed to promote the middle class, you've missed the point. That meddling is the cause of the decline of the middle class and American economy in general. At best, central planning works for a while for some people at the expense of others - usually the well-connected at the expense of the less-well-connected. Free markets work for everyone equally, as long as they remain free - which obviously is hard to do because the temptation to interfere is so great, especially among politicians who get to buy-off their constituencies with other people's money...but that's a subject for another day.

I forgot about one class of people in a few years that will be able to get loans for houses in a couple of years. Your post reminded me of one of them. Bankruptcies is the word that reminded me of something. There are a lot of people going through bankruptcy and if you have a decent job, in two years you can rebuild your credit to where you can qualify for a mortgage again. Isn't our system great.

Goldfingerer
09-02-2010, 11:01 AM
Exactly, debt liquidation is not a goal unto itself. Who likes bankruptcies? The point is to flush out of the system all the misallocations of resources and inefficiencies that generated the boom/bust in the first place. Once that's accomplished, the trick is avoiding further interference.

It sounds great to suggest creating jobs for the middle class, and I agree that a strong middle class is essential for a healthy, republican America; the question is, how do you create one? If your answer is some kind of top-down centrally planned economy, with sudisidies, tax credits, or other manipulations designed to promote the middle class, you've missed the point. That meddling is the cause of the decline of the middle class and American economy in general. At best, central planning works for a while for some people at the expense of others - usually the well-connected at the expense of the less-well-connected. Free markets work for everyone equally, as long as they remain free - which obviously is hard to do because the temptation to interfere is so great, especially among politicians who get to buy-off their constituencies with other people's money...but that's a subject for another day.

Most goldbugs have a libertarian mindset when it comes to government. That means almost no government regulation. Let the market decide everything and in theory all that sounds really great.

The problem is greed. Unbridled corporate greed virtually ensures that they will not do anything to help bring jobs to this country, when they can get the same work done in some banana republic for a fraction of the cost.

Corporations do not have the peoples best interest at heart. Nor do they care about the welfare of the country. We've all seen what happens when you remove all constraints and let the do what they want.

The jobs left this country in droves. The rich got richer and the poor got poorer. The top 1% of wealth accumulated even more wealth and the middle class has had many decades of declining wages, benefits and standards of living as we slowly try equalize with the rest of the third world.

Capitalism today is really Corporatism. It is good for corporations and the very wealthiest people, but it is terrible for everybody else.

asusenior
09-02-2010, 11:30 AM
Most goldbugs have a libertarian mindset when it comes to government. That means almost no government regulation. Let the market decide everything and in theory all that sounds really great.

The problem is greed. Unbridled corporate greed virtually ensures that they will not do anything to help bring jobs to this country, when they can get the same work done in some banana republic for a fraction of the cost.

Corporations do not have the peoples best interest at heart. Nor do they care about the welfare of the country. We've all seen what happens when you remove all constraints and let the do what they want.

The jobs left this country in droves. The rich got richer and the poor got poorer. The top 1% of wealth accumulated even more wealth and the middle class has had many decades of declining wages, benefits and standards of living as we slowly try equalize with the rest of the third world.

Capitalism today is really Corporatism. It is good for corporations and the very wealthiest people, but it is terrible for everybody else.

Again the problem is not corporations but our own government. Using the force of government to bring back the very jobs they helped chase away is not a solution. If you do not support those companies that sent jobs overseas then don't buy their products. As for me, I prefer to save money and purchase items of my choosing regardless of where it's made. Government has indirectly created incentives to support bubble economy jobs such as those in construction, real estate, banking, and finance. The government has created every disincentive possible to invest in new plants and equipment. We don't have enough engineers to design products of quality. We have too many stiff environmental, health, and worker's compensation regulations. We have too many expensive lawsuits that risks bankrupting entire companies.

During the early 80s, Detroit cried foul when they saw their market share slip in the face of stiff Japanese competition. The wage of a typical Japanese autoworker was half of the bloated Big Three's unionized workers. So what did they do? Well instead of making quality improvement strides and giving cars people want, they asked the government to impose quotas. Who suffered? Nearly every carbuyer in the form of increased prices.

Givemegold
09-02-2010, 01:14 PM
Again the problem is not corporations but our own government. Using the force of government to bring back the very jobs they helped chase away is not a solution. If you do not support those companies that sent jobs overseas then don't buy their products. As for me, I prefer to save money and purchase items of my choosing regardless of where it's made. Government has indirectly created incentives to support bubble economy jobs such as those in construction, real estate, banking, and finance. The government has created every disincentive possible to invest in new plants and equipment. We don't have enough engineers to design products of quality. We have too many stiff environmental, health, and worker's compensation regulations. We have too many expensive lawsuits that risks bankrupting entire companies.

During the early 80s, Detroit cried foul when they saw their market share slip in the face of stiff Japanese competition. The wage of a typical Japanese autoworker was half of the bloated Big Three's unionized workers. So what did they do? Well instead of making quality improvement strides and giving cars people want, they asked the government to impose quotas. Who suffered? Nearly every carbuyer in the form of increased prices.

The corporations run the government. The corporations are the ones that get politicians elected. A politician is can be replaced by just financing the other canidate. Then you can run a story in the media to destroy any politician because the corporations own the media. The United States government is ran like a corporation because that is what it it.

Ronald Reagan pretty much surrendered all power to the corporations and then did what he did to unions because that is what corporations wanted him to do.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/17/michael-moores-capitalism_n_289868.html

"You are going to have to speed it up." It is obvious if you are going to say that to a President then you are his master.

litemine
09-02-2010, 02:09 PM
27 Aug Washington D.C. protest? return to some Pride?
What is required to happen. American business's need to get effient, workers mor dilligent skills upgraded and wages increased, get back tto work work hred and produce . Quality, other markets have long since been sent overseas, bring some home, most are automated anyways eh..
Invest in your companies with everything , including making desisions for the company while you are in its employment. Stop stealing. and on and on.
Stop big usa controled copoations from controling cia attacks for the betterment a company for profit , or even just thinking that should be alright..

QUOTE=torpedoman;1061822]close fanny and freddie write off all loans as paid. the money freed up will act as a better stimulus to the economy than anything the government can devise.The only downside is there would be no way for the politicians to line their and their buds pockets. with the continuing bailouts of these two it would be cheaper in the long run.[/QUOTE]

Silver Tongued Devil
09-03-2010, 01:34 AM
https://www.kitcomm.com/showthread.php?t=66461

Goldfingerer
09-03-2010, 05:39 PM
Again the problem is not corporations but our own government. Using the force of government to bring back the very jobs they helped chase away is not a solution. If you do not support those companies that sent jobs overseas then don't buy their products. As for me, I prefer to save money and purchase items of my choosing regardless of where it's made. Government has indirectly created incentives to support bubble economy jobs such as those in construction, real estate, banking, and finance. The government has created every disincentive possible to invest in new plants and equipment. We don't have enough engineers to design products of quality. We have too many stiff environmental, health, and worker's compensation regulations. We have too many expensive lawsuits that risks bankrupting entire companies.

During the early 80s, Detroit cried foul when they saw their market share slip in the face of stiff Japanese competition. The wage of a typical Japanese autoworker was half of the bloated Big Three's unionized workers. So what did they do? Well instead of making quality improvement strides and giving cars people want, they asked the government to impose quotas. Who suffered? Nearly every carbuyer in the form of increased prices.

I don't buy that argument at all. And the simple reason is this. People who are spending what little they have for things they need, will nearly ALWAYS go with the lowest price. Most people aren't rich, they have to stretch their dollars as far as possible.

Expecting people to conscientiously choose this manufacturer or that one , day in and day out , is not practical. Most people are too busy with their daily life to bother with it and in the end, people buy what is cheapest on the shelf.

They don't see far enough into the future to realize that they are putting Americans out of work by buying foreign made goods.

That is where the government MUST come in.

You must always remember, the corporations DO NOT CARE...........AT ALL.

Somebody has to care for those that cannot see the big picture.


And I also get tired of the drones who cry about a worker making a living wage, meanwhile , the CEO and his cohorts are making millions in bonuses because they can drive down everybody elses salary.

Silvercoin
09-03-2010, 09:33 PM
forget financial responsibility, and any moral obligation to banks and corporations.

they have no moral obligations to you.

if you really look at it; morality was a creation that benefits the immoral.


hell why don't i just go rob the local grocery store.

these days if it feels good and someone else gets to pick up the tab, do it.

golditiki
09-04-2010, 02:35 AM
Stop fiddling with the economy and let the damn thing collapse on it's own. The less the gov does "something" about it, the quicker you'll see a real recovery. Jim Willie: "THE UNITED STATES WILL BEGIN A RECOVERY WHEN THE TOO BIG TO FAIL BANKS ARE PLOWED UNDER."

yes, these banks are cuckoos, should be nationalized and given as objective to finance the reindustrialization and reequipment of the US.

Golditiki +++