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Got Goldies
03-22-2010, 02:21 PM
Figuring this thing out is pretty easy.


http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll195/luckylegs10/3-22dow.jpg


With healthcare passed, our economy should get a good boost from the new plan. The above is how I see it happening.

Mats Wheellander
03-22-2010, 02:30 PM
DOW 13K!

I've been calling it for a year on Kitco.

Got Goldies
03-22-2010, 02:34 PM
DOW 13K!

I've been calling it for a year on Kitco.

Thats like next year; 2011. There is plenty of time.

Evvs20
03-22-2010, 02:43 PM
You're calling for gold collapsing, Dow heading back towards all time highs and strong dollar? All sounds pretty rosey to me...

Got Goldies
03-22-2010, 02:44 PM
You're calling for gold collapsing, Dow heading back towards all time highs and strong dollar? All sounds pretty rosey to me...

Isn't that everyones worst nightmare? You said it nicely.

Evvs20
03-22-2010, 02:52 PM
Isn't that everyones worst nightmare? You said it nicely.

If "everyone" = people on this thread, maybe...otherwise, it sounds like what most uniformed people would "hope" for.

Got Goldies
03-22-2010, 02:53 PM
If "everyone" = people on this thread, maybe...otherwise, it sounds like what most uniformed people would "hope" for.

Everyone is in Gold is what I was saying. This is the second time I have seen the DOW crash in 10 years.

Evvs20
03-22-2010, 02:59 PM
Everyone is in Gold is what I was saying. This is the second time I have seen the DOW crash in 10 years.

Do you mean everyone as in the big players? B/C I don't know any normal everyday joes vested in gold.

Welcome back BTW...been a little boring around here.

Got Goldies
03-22-2010, 03:01 PM
Do you mean everyone as in the big players? B/C I don't know any normal everyday joes vested in gold.

Welcome back BTW...been a little boring around here.

Joe does not go around saying he got Gold.

I go by price. Gold at all time high.. DOW like a wounded buffalo with kamoto dragons all around it.

DenariiForMe
03-23-2010, 12:35 AM
Figuring this thing out is pretty easy.


http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll195/luckylegs10/3-22dow.jpg


With healthcare passed, our economy should get a good boost from the new plan. The above is how I see it happening.

How does a massive tax increase boost the economy?

Got Goldies
03-23-2010, 02:24 AM
How does a massive tax increase boost the economy?

They take all that money and give it to the hospital, doctors office, and pharmacy, etc.

They in turn, who have these jobs, stimulate the economy by spending money all over the place.

DenariiForMe
03-23-2010, 01:13 PM
Why would you assume that the people given the money would spend it more stimulatively/productively than the people from whom it was taken as tax? And, of course, the money isn't going directly to the employees; the corporations are taking their share, which means profits come off the top and are not necessarily spent anytime soon.

I think this is good for the companies in the club and therefore for their employees, but altogether a negative for the economy, short and long term.

Got Goldies
03-23-2010, 05:22 PM
Dow up 100 points. Its a no brainer. It looks like the next pit stop is 12K.

I think there is medical facility on every corner.

urban prospector
03-23-2010, 06:00 PM
Why would you assume that the people given the money would spend it more stimulatively/productively than the people from whom it was taken as tax? And, of course, the money isn't going directly to the employees; the corporations are taking their share, which means profits come off the top and are not necessarily spent anytime soon.

I think this is good for the companies in the club and therefore for their employees, but altogether a negative for the economy, short and long term.


on the tax side of things . someone going to pay or no services

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2010/02/state-tax-revenues.html
e Nelson A. Rockefeller Institute of Government reported today that state tax revenues fell for the fifth consecutive quarter, down 4.1% for the final quarter of 2009:

* Corporate income tax: -5.8%
* Personal income tax: -4.5%
* Sales tax: -4.2%

The decline was biggest in the Southwest (-18.1%); tax revenues increased 0.5% in New England. State tax revenues declined in 39 states:

add to this the fact that the boomers are closing ranks on their cash ..ie ; not spending . where is the money going to come from to get consuming back to a level that even still can't get the deficeit down .
so companies earning are going to drop esp when they need to get some of the losses they hiding in the open . the housing sector is completely sunk . still falling ,foreclosures still rising .

so apart from the banks who are also broke . you will have some health care jobs till that fails .yes the stock market may continue on its merry way but i doubt it unless inflation really take hold . asx chart very similar to the dow and the asx appears to have put in a top on the monthly chart

DenariiForMe
03-23-2010, 07:18 PM
All good points, this is a head fake. Some people on this forum are talking like there's actually a correlation between the real economy and the stock market...Hah. Sooner or later reality is going to force a crisis so obviously heinous that the stock market will have to fall, nevermind temporary stimulus from handouts to one group or another, fake economic data, etc, etc.

canadianglow
03-23-2010, 07:29 PM
They take all that money and give it to the hospital, doctors office, and pharmacy, etc.

They in turn, who have these jobs, stimulate the economy by spending money all over the place.

Since when has taking money from the private sector and giving it to the public sector ever resulted in a net gain for productive capacity?

PS. (I'm not intentionally targetting your posts, but the stuff you're posting lately is absolutely asinine)

Got Goldies
03-23-2010, 07:30 PM
Since when has taking money from the private sector and giving it to the public sector ever resulted in a net gain for productive capacity?

PS. (I'm not intentionally targetting your posts, but the stuff you're posting lately is absolutely asinine)

Last I checked the medical field was in the private sector.

All that changes is goobermint provides low income medical ins. to needy. I'm looking forward to buying good insurance for $300 a year.

This is about DOW JONES Rally to 14k.

Flathead8
03-23-2010, 08:06 PM
I could totally see that happening. I don`t think the DOW means much to regular folks tho.


I cant afford anything in the dow. Ive got 6000 shares of a no name silver mine, cost me 40 bucks. it`s fun watching it move around as time goes on.


My entire adult life the dow has done this and that and such and such. my life isnt affected by it.

urban prospector
03-23-2010, 08:09 PM
Last I checked the medical field was in the private sector.

All that changes is goobermint provides low income medical ins. to needy. I'm looking forward to buying good insurance for $300 a year.

This is about DOW JONES Rally to 14k.

hate to break it to you but on the min wage in oz it costs 450 a year .. plus our medical charges are far smaller than yours.

remember i'm talking min wage here . go over 50 k and they take more

canadianglow
03-23-2010, 08:29 PM
Last I checked the medical field was in the private sector.

All that changes is goobermint provides low income medical ins. to needy. I'm looking forward to buying good insurance for $300 a year.

This is about DOW JONES Rally to 14k.

We're not talking about the medical field, we're talking about the insurance field. They're different. The medical field is where they treat you, the insurance field is where they pool risk and pay to treat you. They're very different, and taking the real competition out of anything as innately corrupt as the insurance industry is bound to cause problems.... (in case the system was problem-plagued already)

real money
03-24-2010, 12:00 AM
GG,
If the US stock market will increase, what will happen to Asian Markets ? Are they going down ?

Got Goldies
03-24-2010, 12:04 AM
We're not talking about the medical field, we're talking about the insurance field. They're different. The medical field is where they treat you, the insurance field is where they pool risk and pay to treat you. They're very different, and taking the real competition out of anything as innately corrupt as the insurance industry is bound to cause problems.... (in case the system was problem-plagued already)

The insurances just want healthy people to insure and Obama putting an end to their practice.

One day, like Social Security, you'll be glad he did this for you.


I have zero insurance right now and if I'm serious injured I'm screwed.


Thanks to Obama he will make sure people like me can obtain insurance with/without a job.

I want to work for myself.

The Dow will reach for 14k and flop over like a pig.

canadianglow
03-24-2010, 01:13 AM
The insurances just want healthy people to insure and Obama putting an end to their practice.

One day, like Social Security, you'll be glad he did this for you.


Well, as the name would suggest ("Canadianglow"), my opinions come out of sympathy for the American people who have to endure these crippling policies - I'm subject to my own Canadian plan to worry about. But, assuming I was an American, I would not for so much as a second, for the rest of my entire life, thank anyone who imposed on me such a plan. Like Social Security, this plan takes resources away from the private sector, and feeds them into the waste machine we call government.



I have zero insurance right now and if I'm serious injured I'm screwed.


That's a choice you have to live with, you're always talking about how great you time markets, or about the steal you got on your house, or about how so and so owes you $8000.00 - I assume you're not living below the poverty level?

Life is about choices. It is true, what we are today is very much so a consequence of yesterdays decisions and our goals of tomorrow. I'm surrounded by bleeding heart liberals, and lazy bafoons who somehow claim as though it is their God-given right to live in a nice home, have a good paying job, and enjoy the many luxuries of the "rich" - just don't drag these people out of the bar or away from their Xbox and expect them to work for it. The USA and Canada is FULL of self made success stories, and they've all got one thing in common, hard work, not handouts.

If you don't have health insurance because you can't afford it, than what are you doing investing in securities, or metals, or real estate? Is your health not paramount in your life? You need to either cut back on some other spending, get more work, or retrain so that you get more for your work. Simple. All this plan does is make it so people who have allocated their resources in life to foolish depreciating causes can syphon off the hardworking folks who have made responsible financial planning choices.




The Dow will reach for 14k and flop over like a pig.

In case you haven't noticed, the Dow and the real economy display very few similarities.


The insurances just want healthy people to insure and Obama putting an end to their practice.

You'll notice most of the healthcare stocks rallied when the bill was passed. For health Insurance providers this was a victory, they get another 30,000,000 more customers! Don't tell me you honestly think that Obama's going to wrestle the big mean insurance companies to the ground and make them say "uncle", they bought and paid for his services years ago - now they're cashing in.

canadianglow
03-24-2010, 02:24 AM
I saved up for 10 years working hard, many weeks 6 days a week and I still had time to post here. I held off buying a home and wreck my marriage for it.

10 years later I own my own home free and clear... no lovely wife.

I tried to ride as many good miners as I could.

I always had insurance. The last 10 years I had the best union insurance anyone would be jealous of.

But I want to be my own boss. I'm tired of slaving for some fat pig.

I respect the fact that you worked hard for 10 years, good on ya! However, the more you want to be your own boss, the less you should want social services. The more social services you have, the less of your earnings you can keep. The less of your earnings you can keep, the less your business can expand. And, that's not even getting into talking about what happens if, The good Lord forbid, you hire someone to work for you! The current system is bad, the new one is even worse. Employers everywhere are going to get hurt real bad.

PS. I've had a "lovely wife" for less than a year now and there is times when I wish for nothing but my old "single" life back. The grass is always greener...

Got Goldies
03-24-2010, 10:16 AM
People are taking back yesterdays 100 point gain?

It don't seem fair.


I'm trying to figure out when PPT will kick in.

Doctor Silverlove 33
03-24-2010, 10:30 AM
What are you talking about with social services?


I will have to either get insurance from my job, like before, or buy it because the business didn't have 50 employee.

All these people talking about how Obama brought us socialized medicine are stupidos.

What he brought us is affordable ins for all.

Thanks for the clarification GG. I'm getting tired of people regurgitating Sean Hannity's talking points when they have no clue of what they are talking about. This health care bill appears to benifit both the hard working as well as the unfortunate. God forbid that the uber wealthy should have to kick in a buck or two from their millions. There is a big difference between being a penny pincher and being just plain stingy.

And for the record I'm self employed now also. There is no need to slave for a fat cat when you can make your own way. All I ever wanted was a fair wage and all I ever got working for the man the last fifteen years was: pay cuts, health insurance premium increases and increased workload. F*** those greedy bastids. I run my own show now.

I'm done with their con game.

http://www.laprogressive.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/rich-government.gif

DenariiForMe
03-24-2010, 11:33 AM
One day, like Social Security, you'll be glad he did this for you.

Yea, my parent are just thrilled that they were forced to pay a large part of their income in exchange for the promie of future benefits...that won't come.


Thanks to Obama he will make sure people like me can obtain insurance with/without a job.

And thanks to Obama (and predecessors of course) you still don't have a job...

Are you joking GG? Is this your reverse psychology at work or do you really believe all this? I suppose you wouldn't admit it if you were...sooo, I'll just keep criticizing what you say I guess

gold skool
03-24-2010, 12:57 PM
GG, not here to bash you, or you views, even tho’ it is nice to see someone with some optimism.

I don’t agree about the DJI moving higher to the ~14K ballpark by the first to mid part of 2011.
IMO the market is currently over bought & over valued.

There are absolutely no fundamentals to support, or to drive this so called bull market in stocks.

There are too many negatives out there; housing = dead, lending =dead, employment = dead, commercial real estate has yet to go thu’ it’s big hiccup, many states are broke with no tax bases to replenish budgets, the US government is beyond broke, municipal bonds will soon be tanking in many cities & counties, and even PMs are not a great investment, IMO, at least not at the moment. At a national level, housing has yet to hit a real bottom, IMO. Sure, there are a few markets that are performing but generally housing has a loooooong way to go before mortgage holders no longer have 'negative' equity.
I'm one of those people that owe more on my mortgage than what my house is worth.

DEBT, DEBT, DEBT; that is killing everything in sight.
There is a sea of red out there, red ink & before long nothing will be able to live within it.

They always say that the stock market is a leading indicator of the economy & job creation, and that job creation & an economic turn around will follow the markets BUT if that were true, then where are the GD jobs??????????

Let’s face it, AFA investing, the stock market is pretty much the only game in town, and it’s all running on positive (bullish) psychology, and the ‘free’ zero% interest money that is fueling it, nothing else.

I honestly don’t see it lasting long; I could be wrong but I could be right ……………

We have the January/March quarterly results coming out starting in a week or two.
I am expecting many bulls to pull their heads in, LOL …………….

Good luck……………

Got Goldies
03-24-2010, 01:05 PM
GG, not here to bash you, or you views, even tho’ it is nice to see someone with some optimism.

I don’t agree about the DJI moving higher to the ~14K ballpark by the first to mid part of 2011.
IMO the market is currently over bought & over valued.

There are absolutely no fundamentals to support, or to drive this so called bull market in stocks.

There are too many negatives out there; housing = dead, lending =dead, employment = dead, commercial real estate has yet to go thu’ it’s big hiccup, many states are broke with no tax bases to replenish budgets, the US government is beyond broke, municipal bonds will soon be tanking in many cities & counties, and even PMs are not a great investment, IMO, at least not at the moment.

DEBT, DEBT, DEBT; that is killing everything in sight.
There is a sea of red out there, red ink & before long nothing will be able to live within it.

They always say that the stock market is a leading indicator of the economy & job creation, and that job creation & an economic turn around will follow the markets BUT if that were true, then where are the GD jobs??????????

Let’s face it, AFA investing, the stock market is pretty much the only game in town, and it’s all running on positive (bullish) psychology, and the ‘free’ zero% interest money that is fueling it, nothing else.

I honestly don’t see it lasting long; I could be wrong but I could be right ……………

We have the January/March quarterly results coming out starting in a week or two.
I am expecting a few bulls to pull there heads in, LOL …………….

Good luck……………

I don't know if 14K is coming by 2011. Its just a guess.

I suppose the PPT could afford 14K by sitting on their shares. I seem to remember the goobermint took out a big stake in banking shares.

I may as well go long, too.

canadianglow
03-24-2010, 01:28 PM
What are you talking about with social services?


I will have to either get insurance from my job, like before, or buy it because the business didn't have 50 employee.

All these people talking about how Obama brought us socialized medicine are stupidos.

What he brought us is affordable ins for all.

Social services is another way of describing a communally paid for program. The new health insurance package that has been passed includes every single person in the US, whether they could previously afford it or not - that's a social service. And, that's probably a good thing. I'm not saying that Universal Healthcare is neccessarily a bad thing, at the present time in the US of A, it's simply not an affordable thing - as far as the theory goes. All these people talking about how medicine is now socialized are completely correct. As time passes by, and the system evolves you'll have something much more similar to Canada's, and if the government here decided to pull the plug on your healthcare, you simply would not get it. If that's not the very definition of a socialized program, I'm not sure what is....

Got Goldies
03-24-2010, 01:33 PM
Social services is another way of describing a communally paid for program. The new health insurance package that has been passed includes every single person in the US, whether they could previously afford it or not - that's a social service. And, that's probably a good thing. I'm not saying that Universal Healthcare is neccessarily a bad thing, at the present time in the US of A, it's simply not an affordable thing - as far as the theory goes. All these people talking about how medicine is now socialized are completely correct. As time passes by, and the system evolves you'll have something much more similar to Canada's, and if the government here decided to pull the plug on your healthcare, you simply would not get it. If that's not the very definition of a socialized program, I'm not sure what is....

Why do you keep twisting this into a social service program? When they take taxes they can give it to any program they want.

I don't seem to remember getting anything back from someone else getting Welfare.

Cramer had a turtle race for 11'500 DOW. The turtle turned before 11,500. :(

canadianglow
03-24-2010, 01:37 PM
Thanks for the clarification GG. I'm getting tired of people regurgitating Sean Hannity's talking points when they have no clue of what they are talking about. This health care bill appears to benifit both the hard working as well as the unfortunate. God forbid that the uber wealthy should have to kick in a buck or two from their millions. There is a big difference between being a penny pincher and being just plain stingy.

And for the record I'm self employed now also. There is no need to slave for a fat cat when you can make your own way. All I ever wanted was a fair wage and all I ever got working for the man the last fifteen years was: pay cuts, health insurance premium increases and increased workload. F*** those greedy bastids. I run my own show now.

I'm done with their con game.

http://www.laprogressive.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/rich-government.gif


This kind of thinking demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of basic economics. Sean Hannity (I've never actually seen the show), or not, when you take resources away from the private sector and give them to a none-competative public sector, they don't go as far. Also, when you apply large taxes on the "uber" wealthy, who own all of your "uber" employment outlets, eventually they move those "uber" employement outlets to places where they can be more effecient. The reason you got all those paycuts working for "the man" in the past has to due with Government piling on additional obligations for your employers, who have turned around and cut wages to stay competitive with other global firms.

But now it gets even worse. Because your savior Obama has such a huge deficit to fund, he's going to have to send Timmy G into the bond market more than ever. More and more government paper in competition w/ commercial paper has a crowding out affect on the bond market and once again makes it more difficult for the private sector to finance their businesses.

But of course, I'm just reading from a fox news transcript, what do I know?

canadianglow
03-24-2010, 02:09 PM
Why do you keep twisting this into a social service program? When they take taxes they can give it to any program they want.

I don't seem to remember getting anything back from someone else getting Welfare.

Cramer had a turtle race for 11'500 DOW. The turtle turned before 11,500. :(

This IS a social service program - no twisting required!

Instead of thinking about getting stuff back from the government, wouldn't it just be better to focus on not giving to them in the first place?

What happened to 14,500?

Got Goldies
03-24-2010, 02:13 PM
This IS a social service program - no twisting required!

Instead of thinking about getting stuff back from the government, wouldn't it just be better to focus on not giving to them in the first place?

What happened to 14,500?

If its a social service program, then why do I have to purchase my own ins?

Checkmate.


Where you going to run? Where you going to hide? Where you going to go? Nowhere.

DOW will rally to less than 11,500 says Cramer turtle race.

canadianglow
03-24-2010, 02:39 PM
If its a social service program, then why do I have to purchase my own ins?

Checkmate.


Where you going to run? Where you going to hide? Where you going to go? Nowhere.

DOW will rally to less than 11,500 says Cramer turtle race.

You sound like Hulk Hogan "WHAT CHOO GONNA DOOO BRUTHA". Might I recommend the following pic as your new avatar? http://listentoleon.net/wp/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/hulk_hogan-shirt.jpg

Anyways, put my king back on the board - this game is far from over! For your assumption to be correct, you would also have the option to stop buying health insurance - penalty free. After the passage of this bill into Law, you no longer have that option. Why? Because your insurance is no longer a private service, it has become a social service that is universally provided. And, as a member of the country in which the social service is provided, you are now obligated by law to participate.

Again, manditory participation in a program that attempts to provide an equal benefit to the entire population as a whole is a social service. Health care in the USA is now a social service.

Got Goldies
03-24-2010, 03:14 PM
You sound like Hulk Hogan "WHAT CHOO GONNA DOOO BRUTHA". Might I recommend the following pic as your new avatar? http://listentoleon.net/wp/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/hulk_hogan-shirt.jpg

Anyways, put my king back on the board - this game is far from over! For your assumption to be correct, you would also have the option to stop buying health insurance - penalty free. After the passage of this bill into Law, you no longer have that option. Why? Because your insurance is no longer a private service, it has become a social service that is universally provided. And, as a member of the country in which the social service is provided, you are now obligated by law to participate.

Again, manditory participation in a program that attempts to provide an equal benefit to the entire population as a whole is a social service. Health care in the USA is now a social service.

They force me to buy Car Ins. too... but nobody but me pays that bill.

Your theory is really not reality and has nothing to do with DOW topic.


Nobody can force you to obey the law. There is people who spit on it everyday.

canadianglow
03-24-2010, 03:20 PM
They force me to buy Car Ins. too... but nobody but me pays that bill.

Your theory is really not reality and has nothing to do with DOW topic.


Nobody can force you to obey the law. There is people who spit on it everyday.

But they don't force you to drive. Therefor, you have the option of avoiding the service, which makes it a private sector insurance. You do not have the option of avoiding health insurance - it's now a must. And, the reason it is a must is because as a social service, the Government will coordinate itself with the large insurance companies to structure your payments so that they cover those who fall short. Again, sounds like a great idea, and it can be! But, in a country that is already bankrupt and spending its way down to the center of the earth, it would need to cut back in order to afford it, which Obama is not.

Nobody can force you to obey the law? Ha, try not obeying it for a bit and see how far you get. Unless you're the type that feels liberated by spending your remaining years behind bars...

My theory is reality as it gets - and don't whine about the topic, you brought up yourself on page 2.

Got Goldies
03-24-2010, 03:22 PM
But they don't force you to drive.

They don't force me to take the bus either. I have the option to walk.


What is your point?


Everyone having their own health insurance hurts you how? I do my own thinking.

DOW is the subject.

canadianglow
03-24-2010, 03:31 PM
They don't force me to take the bus either. I have the option to walk.


What is your point?


Everyone having their own health insurance hurts you how? I do my own thinking.

DOW is the subject.

My point is, you can't compare the two. Health Insurance is provided to the masses, and is manditory. Auto Insurance is manditory only so far as when you choose to drive. Everyone having their own health insurance wouldn't hurt, except for the fact that everyone has it, but not everyone pays for it. In reality, if everyone was already paying for it, you wouldn't need a socialized plan. There is only so much as far as resources in an economy is concerned. If you want to cover more people, it requires more money. Where is that money going to come from? That's the problem. The Money. It's always about the money.

You certainly do think for yourself - Just remember, "I think and therefore I am" is a pile of crap.

Stop arguing health insurance if you want to talk about the Dow.

Got Goldies
03-24-2010, 03:32 PM
My point is, you can't compare the two. Health Insurance is provided to the masses, and is manditory. Auto Insurance is manditory only so far as when you choose to drive. Everyone having their own health insurance wouldn't hurt, except for the fact that everyone has it, but not everyone pays for it. In reality, if everyone was already paying for it, you wouldn't need a socialized plan. Their is only so much as far as resources in an economy is concerned. If you want to cover more people, it requires more money. Where is that money going to come from? That's the problem. The Money. It's always about the money.

You certainly do think for yourself - Just remember, "I think and therefore I am" is a pile of crap.

Its mandatory you should obey the law. If you do not obey this law they will lock you away???????? Get insurance.

Its not worth the H.A.; get coverage. I don't want to dish out medicaid for your lack of insurance.

I want to discuss the DOW.. I don't care about health ins. topic.

canadianglow
03-24-2010, 03:46 PM
Its not worth the H.A.; get coverage. I don't want to dish out medicaid for your lack of insurance.

You're missing the point entirely - with this new plan you ARE paying for someone elses lack of insurance. Do you really think Obama would have such a mass following of dirt poor deadbeats if all he was going to do was to force them to buy expensive insurance? Of course not!

Lets simplify this:

Scenario 1

You have 100 people

In that group of 100 people, 70 have healthcare, and 30 do not.
In that current system - those 70 that pay for healthcare do it at "x" cost. If one of those 30 people w/out healthcare get sick you end up dishing out medicare assuming they have virtually no means of paying otherwise. But, you really only pay for them when they need medical care, and the system is not setup to be overly suited to serve them.


Scenario 2

You have that same group of 100 people.

You now wish to cover all of them - all the time, not just when they need the service. What do you do? Only 70 could afford it in scenario 1, and incomes haven't gone up. So, in order to cover them, all of the 70 who could afford it now have to pay more so that the 30 who couldn't afford it now can.

But, Obamacare is even better - he'll now cover things that the insurance companies wouldn't ordinarily touch, like pre-existing conditions. This makes the difference between scenario 1 and 2 not only different on the basis that in scenario 2 the 70 have to pay for the 30 who weren't paying, but now the 70 have insurance that is more inclusive and naturally more expensive to begin with.

The endgame is a considerably more expensive route, which as i've mentioned, is not necessarily a bad thing - but can it be afforded along side the wars, the bailouts, the stimulus, the salaries... probably not.

Got Goldies
03-24-2010, 03:50 PM
You're missing the point entirely - with this new plan you ARE paying for someone elses lack of insurance. Do you really think Obama would have such a mass following of dirt poor deadbeats if all he was going to do was to force them to buy expensive insurance? Of course not!

Lets simplify this:

Scenario 1

You have 100 people

In that group of 100 people, 70 have healthcare, and 30 do not.
In that current system - those 70 that pay for healthcare do it at "x" cost. If one of those 30 people w/out healthcare get sick they end up using medicare assuming they have virtually no means of paying otherwise.


Scenario 2

You have that same group of 100 people.

You now wish to cover all of them. What do you do? Only 70 could afford it in scenario 1, and incomes haven't gone up. So, in order to cover them, all of the 70 who could afford it now have to pay more so that the 30 who couldn't afford it now can.

But, Obamacare is even better - he'll now cover things that the insurance companies wouldn't ordinarily touch, like pre-existing conditions. This makes the difference between scenario 1 and 2 not only different on the basis that in scenario 2 the 70 have to pay for the 30 who weren't paying, but now the 70 have insurance that is more inclusive and naturally more expensive to begin with.

The endgame is a considerably more expensive route, which as i've mentioned, is not necessarily a bad thing - but can it be afforded along side the wars, the bailouts, the stimulus, the salaries... probably not.

I asked my r/e agent how associations go up in price. She said the theory is the more people in my association the lower my cost per month.

Thats what I care about is my monthly cost. I don't give a rats arse if you choose to disobey the law and get locked up.

The DOW chart shows a rally to 14K.

canadianglow
03-24-2010, 04:02 PM
She's right. More people who pay equal amounts of money for something like insurance makes it less expensive.

But, that's not what is happening here. More people are in, but the aggregate amount being paid in premiums has increased for a portion of the people in, while being reduced for another portion who were previously out. What you have is a more people funded by less people - this nullifies your R/E's theory. You've just shifted the weight of payments to allow for more deadbeats.

Got Goldies
03-24-2010, 04:06 PM
She's right. More people who pay equal amounts of money for something like insurance makes it less expensive.

But, that's not what is happening here. More people are in, but the aggregate amount being paid in premiums has increased for a portion of the people in, while being reduced for another portion who were previously out. What you have is a more people funded by less people - this nullifies your R/E's theory. You've just shifted the weight of payments to allow for more deadbeats.

I'm trying to wrap my head around this.


Everyone is required to have a policy on themselves so it should get cheaper.


I think what you are mad about is if you own a money guzzling business, it upsets you you have to kick out medical insurance policies for everyone?

The DOW cramer turtle race was funny.. Anyone have youtube of the race?

canadianglow
03-24-2010, 04:24 PM
I'm trying to wrap my head around this.


Everyone is required to have a policy on themselves so it should get cheaper.


I think what you are mad about is if you own a money guzzling business, it upsets you you have to kick out medical insurance policies for everyone?

The DOW cramer turtle race was funny.. Anyone have youtube of the race?

Haha - dude, I don't even live in the US, nor do I own a business.

I am from Canada, where we have a socialized system and I've studied the Obamacare proposal quite a bit. The idea of healthcare does not upset me at all, in fact, I support it on the basis that more people get more care! I'm viewing this as an economical decision that doesn't make any sense and is unsustainable.

What can't you wrap your head around? More people are paying into it, but the premiums are not equally established. In otherwords, the people paying for the program are not those who didn't have insurance before, it's the ones who DID have insurance before. The same guys who provide the jobs that are the backbone of any economy. By turning the gun on these guys, business will suffer, and when business suffers the economy as a whole suffers. I think where you have it wrong is, you're making the assumption that the 30,000,000 + new healthcare inductee's will be paying an amount that sufficiently offsets their impact on the system - which isn't the case.

I'll have to continue this fascinating conversation a little later. Have a great day!

Got Goldies
03-24-2010, 04:29 PM
Haha - dude, I don't even live in the US, nor do I own a business.

I am from Canada, where we have a socialized system and I've studied the Obamacare proposal quite a bit. The idea of healthcare does not upset me at all, in fact, I support it on the basis that more people get more care! I'm viewing this as an economical decision that doesn't make any sense and is unsustainable.

What can't you wrap your head around? More people are paying into it, but the premiums are not equally established. In otherwords, the people paying for the program are not those who didn't have insurance before, it's the ones who DID have insurance before. The same guys who provide the jobs that are the backbone of any economy. By turning the gun on these guys, business will suffer, and when business suffers the economy as a whole suffers. I think where you have it wrong is, you're making the assumption that the 30,000,000 + new healthcare inductee's will be paying an amount that sufficiently offsets their impact on the system - which isn't the case.

I'll have to continue this fascinating conversation a little later. Have a great day!


Its only on business 50 and above.

If these people don't want 50+ and above business, tell them to give it to me I will take it over for nothing. I would love to shop for a good insurance so my cherished employees have all the medical bills covered.

gold skool
03-24-2010, 05:11 PM
........ and to think, I thought this thread was about the magical DJI mega rally :confused: ..............

Doctor Silverlove 33
03-24-2010, 05:15 PM
The reason you got all those paycuts working for "the man" in the past has to due with Government piling on additional obligations for your employers, who have turned around and cut wages to stay competitive with other global firms.

But now it gets even worse. Because your savior Obama has such a huge deficit to fund, he's going to have to send Timmy G into the bond market more than ever. More and more government paper in competition w/ commercial paper has a crowding out affect on the bond market and once again makes it more difficult for the private sector to finance their businesses.

But of course, I'm just reading from a fox news transcript, what do I know?

You must be because you are wrong about my former place of work. In 2005 a new owner bought the place for a song as well as recieving tax incentives for keeping work in Michigan. On take over they proceeded to force a 30% pay cut on labor across the board. Management got raises. Greed pure and simple.

Sorry GG. Dow to 14,000 is certain. When? Who knows? I agree with your old sig they will run like cowards (out of gold probably).

http://blogs.salon.com/0002007/images/stampede.jpg

canadianglow
03-24-2010, 05:48 PM
You must be because you are wrong about my former place of work. In 2005 a new owner bought the place for a song as well as recieving tax incentives for keeping work in Michigan. On take over they proceeded to force a 30% pay cut on labor across the board. Management got raises. Greed pure and simple.


Or, he bought the business for a song because it was crippled with overly paid staff - and he slashed wages to make it more competitive, which he was likely able to do because the supply of labour outstripped the demand.

If taxes were truely lowered, and business was truely booming, businesses would be forced to pay more due to the demand in the labour market. Don't take my word for it, take a look at Alberta's (Canada) economy after taxes were slashed and demand grew. Wages flourished because employers were actually fighting over the labour market.

As long as an employer has the ability to replace you on the spot for less- they'll cut wages, unless you're in a Union (and we all know how well that plays out *cough* GM *cough*). This has nothing to do with greed, and everything to do with effeciency. IF you want to make more, you'll need to diversify, or specialize to a degree that you're very difficult to replace - then your employer will think twice about slashing your wages. If you position a drivetrain on an assembly line all day long for 20 years, you deserve to stagnate, because your skillset hasn't changed.

Doctor Silverlove 33
03-24-2010, 06:01 PM
Or, he bought the business for a song because it was crippled with overly paid staff - and he slashed wages to make it more competitive, which he was likely able to do because the supply of labour outstripped the demand.

If taxes were truely lowered, and business was truely booming, businesses would be forced to pay more due to the demand in the labour market. Don't take my word for it, take a look at Alberta's (Canada) economy after taxes were slashed and demand grew. Wages flourished because employers were actually fighting over the labour market.

As long as an employer has the ability to replace you on the spot for less- they'll cut wages, unless you're in a Union (and we all know how well that plays out *cough* GM *cough*). This has nothing to do with greed, and everything to do with effeciency. IF you want to make more, you'll need to diversify, or specialize to a degree that you're very difficult to replace - then your employer will think twice about slashing your wages. If you position a drivetrain on an assembly line all day long for 20 years, you deserve to stagnate, because your skillset hasn't changed.

Dude don't you get tired of being wrong. The labor at my shop was represented by UAW. No sweet heart deal for us. Just more cuts. You sound more like FOX news everytime you post. Too many assumtions. Get your facts straight before you try to argue a point.

http://me414.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/ignorance.jpg

canadianglow
03-24-2010, 06:19 PM
Dude don't you get tired of being wrong. The labor at my shop was represented by UAW. No sweet heart deal for us. Just more cuts. You sound more like FOX news everytime you post. Too many assumtions. Get your facts straight before you try to argue a point.

http://me414.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/ignorance.jpg

I don't think their is a definitive right or wrong position in these matters - only opinions. You'd do better to actually defend yours, rather than simply to attempt to associate all of my opinions with a conservative tv station and post silly little pictures.

But, now that you've brought up the UAW - let me ask you, in light of getting "all of the info", what did you do, and how much did you get paid to do it?

Doctor Silverlove 33
03-24-2010, 06:56 PM
I don't think their is a definitive right or wrong position in these matters - only opinions. You'd do better to actually defend yours, rather than simply to attempt to associate all of my opinions with a conservative tv station and post silly little pictures.

But, now that you've brought up the UAW - let me ask you, in light of getting "all of the info", what did you do, and how much did you get paid to do it?

Sorry, I tend to get uppity when people make incorrect assumptions.

Electrician. Started at $21 an hour and was reduced to $16 as well as drastic cuts in health insurance to go with an increase in premiums. The first owner tried to start another shop (non union of course) and found out the hard way an uneducated work force was not the way to go. That shop went under and the loss of capital put our place in bankruptcy. New owner bought place for a song and has made similar bad mangement choices and now is after more money from the workforce to make up for it.

And yes, I'm moving on. What should be scary to the big money capitalists is when all working people say "F*** It" and start running their own show. Who will wipe their asses for them then.

Sorry again GG for hijacking you thread.

canadianglow
03-24-2010, 07:04 PM
Sorry, I tend to get uppity when people make incorrect assumptions.

Electrician. Started at $21 an hour and was reduced to $16 as well as drastic cuts in health insurance to go with an increase in premiums. The first owner tried to start another shop (non union of course) and found out the hard way an uneducated work force was not the way to go. That shop went under and the loss of capital put our place in bankruptcy. New owner bought place for a song and has made similar bad mangement choices and now is after more money from the workforce to make up for it.

And yes, I'm moving on. What should be scary to the big money capitalists is when all working people say "F*** It" and start running their own show. Who will wipe their asses for them then.

Sorry again GG for hijacking you thread.

Don't apologize to GG for hijacking, he hijacked it himself 4 pages back when he pronounced to the world that giving money to the public sector was a good way to stimulate the economy. -Now I see he has a thread in his honor regarding that very post, he'll be just smitten. :D

Anyways, I don't mean to sound insensitve to your situation Dr. Silverlove, in my opinion, an electrian is worth everybit of 21 per hour. I think the bigger picture I'm after is, that it's easy to hate on businesses and subsequently stick them with all sorts of unneccessary obligations, while ignoring the fact that they are the lifeblood of an economy.

I hope things worked out well for you in the end...

crmckim
03-24-2010, 08:54 PM
Dude don't you get tired of being wrong. The labor at my shop was represented by UAW. No sweet heart deal for us. Just more cuts. You sound more like FOX news everytime you post. Too many assumtions. Get your facts straight before you try to argue a point.

http://me414.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/ignorance.jpg

Where I work there are certain departments that are represented by the union (UFCW) and they don't get any great deals. They get paid the same wage scale and have to obey the same regulations and standards the rest of the company does. The only deal they get is cheaper helath insurance, which is actually offset by the union dues they have to pay. I've seen union workers get let go for the same reason as non union. In my opinion, unions are just another business in a service sector heavy economy.

Got Goldies
03-24-2010, 10:33 PM
Figuring this thing out is pretty easy.


http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll195/luckylegs10/3-22dow.jpg


With healthcare passed, our economy should get a good boost from the new plan. The above is how I see it happening.

Twin peaks is a hot show for wall street.

Peaks and valleys? Can GG pull s this off?

Got Goldies
03-25-2010, 12:07 PM
DOW up 110 points... all the suckers sold yesterday.

gold skool
03-25-2010, 12:29 PM
many stocks hit 52 weeks high back in the October '09 time frame & are back near those levels now

I really don't see this market going much higher, if at all ......................

of course we have the FED announcing rates are gonna stay status quo for some time so, the 'free' money is still flowing

if this current market keeps an upward trend, I don't see it going past mid year but IMO a correction is at hand waaaaaaaay before then .......

more FED news in mid April, quarterly results coming in April, and there are always the intangibles ..............

Got Goldies
03-25-2010, 12:32 PM
many stocks hit 52 weeks high back in the October '09 time frame & are back near those levels now

I really don't see this market going much higher, if at all ......................

of course we have the FED announcing rates are gonna stay status quo for some time so, the 'free' money is still flowing

if this current market keeps an upward trend, I don't see it going past mid year but IMO a correction is at hand waaaaaaaay before then .......

more FED news in mid April, quarterly results coming in April, and there are always the intangibles ..............


Look at the chart where the next correction is. Cramer had a turtle race yesterday with that pretty gal from CNBC and the turtle turned at 11,500.
I was in shock Cramer is having turtle race to determine where DOW go.

gold skool
03-25-2010, 12:42 PM
not a huge TV fan & certainly not a fan of 'Mad Money'; I can't stomach that guy ..........................

Got Goldies
03-25-2010, 01:24 PM
not a huge TV fan & certainly not a fan of 'Mad Money'; I can't stomach that guy ..........................

Cramer does stuff outside of mad money.


Thats where he becomes a normal guy. I was in utter shock him and the pretty CNBC girl was racing turtles for the next DOW price. They said today cramer was wrong its a hare race.

gold skool
03-25-2010, 01:50 PM
racing turtles?

I thought a monkey throwing darts at a dart board worked much better .............

gold skool
03-25-2010, 04:01 PM
DOW up 110 points... all the suckers sold yesterday.

at one point in the trading the DJI was up 120 points today & ended 5 points up, thus giving up a 115 point gain .......

......... it's a casino, monkies throwing darts again .............

tomorrow is Friday & my guess is a bit of a sale off; who wants to hold over the weekend

Greece debt issue isn't dead; it's ALIVE:eek: ................. IMO, consumer spending has peaked ............ bad news ............

getting to DJI 11K is gonna be a b**** .......................